Help With Apologetics

[Thomas Marian]

Well, it's not really apologetics, just a curious non-Catholic friend.

Firstly, she was asking about how the liturgy of the Church developed or, more precisely, why it is so "formal" (I believe a better word would be "liturgical") and, primarily, where this came from (historically, I mean).

Secondly, she asked about why priests are required to be celibate.

So yes, a little help would be super, even if it's just pointing me to an appropriate article in the Defense Directory.

Thanks all!

Edited December 16, 2006 by Thomas Marian

[littleflower+JMJ]

Hello Thomas Marian! I'm sure if you post your questions in the board where all our scholars go and discuss, you might get some help from them!

Heres the linkage....[url="http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?showforum=12"]Transmundane Lane[/url]

Good luck! And props to you for spreading the faith to a fellow curious friend!

I could also just move the thread of ya if you like....just let me know.

[Thomas Marian]

Could you please move it?

Thanks

o{]:-)

[littleflower+JMJ]

bump for Thomas!

[Thomas Marian]

Thanks littleflower!

Update: I no longer need info about celibacy, but a somewhat short, well-articulated answer to the question about the liturgy would be great. Any takers??

[thessalonian]

This from the Catechism regarding the liturgy.


"1345 As early as the second century we have the witness of St. Justin Martyr for the basic lines of the order of the Eucharistic celebration. They have stayed the same until our own day for all the great liturgical families. St. Justin wrote to the pagan emperor Antoninus Pius (138-161) around the year 155, explaining what Christians did:

On the day we call the day of the sun, all who dwell in the city or country gather in the same place.
The memoirs of the apostles and the writings of the prophets are read, as much as time permits.

When the reader has finished, he who presides over those gathered admonishes and challenges them to imitate these beautiful things.

Then we all rise together and offer prayers* for ourselves . . .and for all others, wherever they may be, so that we may be found righteous by our life and actions, and faithful to the commandments, so as to obtain eternal salvation.

When the prayers are concluded we exchange the kiss.

Then someone brings bread and a cup of water and wine mixed together to him who presides over the brethren.

He takes them and offers praise and glory to the Father of the universe, through the name of the Son and of the Holy Spirit and for a considerable time he gives thanks (in Greek: eucharistian) that we have been judged worthy of these gifts.

When he has concluded the prayers and thanksgivings, all present give voice to an acclamation by saying: 'Amen.'

When he who presides has given thanks and the people have responded, those whom we call deacons give to those present the "eucharisted" bread, wine and water and take them to those who are absent. "


That's pretty much the form of the Mass. It should be noted that this was not the beginning of the liturgy either, but a description of what was already taking place throughout the Church. I believe in Cyprian's Catechetical lectures also he speaks of the liturgical nature of worship but I would have to check. The Didache is another source (late first century, or early second).

An interesting read as far as the liturgical nature of Catholic worship is Scott Hahn's "The Lamb's Supper". In it he shows how the Mass parrellel's the book of revelatoin. It is a fascinating read in which he also gets in to the historical aspects.

I only have a short time right now. I will try give more detail later.

Edited December 20, 2006 by thessalonian

[thessalonian]

With regard to preistly celibacy, in Matt 19 Jesus tells the scribes and pharasees "Moses allowed a bill of divorce because of the hardness of your hearts, but in the beginning (i.e. adam and eve) it was not so.". In other words divorce is not a part of God's plan for us. Peter says "well then it is better not to marry" and Jesus says "To some this has been given for the kingdom". My quotes may not be exact but that's the gist of it. The point is priests are celibate to further God's kingdom, so that they can devote full time to the study of his word and his Church and for conversion and care of souls. Paul tells us in 1 Cor 7 that "it is better not to marry". That a man who is married is divided between family and service of God (though service of family is service of God). Historically celibacy was a part of the Church from the earliest of days. Most of the early church fathers do not seem to be married. A council of Trullo, in the 6th century makes and exception of marriage for clergy. Some of the Apostles and early church leaders were married. We know that Peter at least at some point had a wife, because Mark 1 and other places speak of his Mother in Law, though it seems that it might be she had died and there is some evidence of that in tradition. But for the most part married clergy in the very earliest times was due to a population to choose from that was generally married. Prieslty celibacy is related to doctrine but is primarily a practice more than doctrinal. It is not against Church doctrine for priests to be married and Eastern rite Catholicism, in full communion with Rome alllows it.

I might also recommend Christopher Wests' theology of the body series for a deeper understanding on this issue. It can be found at www.christopherwest.com.

Hope that helps.

Thess

Edited December 20, 2006 by thessalonian

[Thomas Marian]

This is great stuff! Thanks so much!

[thessalonian]

[quote name='Thomas Marian' post='1146493' date='Dec 20 2006, 10:58 AM']
This is great stuff! Thanks so much!
[/quote]


Your welcome. I should also mention that there are latin rite priests who are married as well. Generally though they tend to be pastors from other denominations who come in to the Church and want to be priests. They must recieve permission from the Pope to do so. There were about 500 Anglican priests who came in to the Church in the 90's when the Anglican Church started allowing women as priests. Most of these were married and were allowed to be Catholic priests. A lutheran pastor whoe was married was allowed to be a Catholic priest when he converted a few years back, here in the twin cities. This shows that it is a matter of practice/discipline more than doctrine.

Edited December 20, 2006 by thessalonian