Abortionist The New Age Nazi's

[pcabibi]

[quote name='RC _' post='1135081' date='Dec 4 2006, 07:28 PM']
You missed my point. Why is not considering someone a person a factor?
[/quote]

it IS a factor... Especially for me personally. But when talking about society in general... you have to realize that there are other people on this planet know what I mean?

Like I said if the govt mandated that all pregnant women aborted thier fetus's immediatley... i'd be right there with you guys because it should be your choice to keep the baby.

[track2004]

Can we just argue about this like normal people without throwing in crazy KKK and Nazi arguments. Is abortion really [i]that[/i] bad?

[pcabibi]

[quote name='track2004' post='1135134' date='Dec 4 2006, 08:55 PM']
Can we just argue about this like normal people without throwing in crazy KKK and Nazi arguments. Is abortion really [i]that[/i] bad?
[/quote]

I thought that was funny, because right before that I quoted you talking about the "grey" area and how people try to make it a black and white issue.


Then I see a KKK and a black man analogy...LITERALLY trying to turn it into a black and white issue... RC you couldn't have prooved the point any better lol

Edited December 5, 2006 by JClives

[Winchester]

[quote name='JClives' post='1135068' date='Dec 4 2006, 06:11 PM']
dude... I personally believe the fetus is a person. But that's my belief... not the mothers... and I respect the mother's decision although I more often than not don't agree with it. This whole arguement is ludicris.
[/quote]
So why should we force any conception of humanity on anyone?

[quote]Can we just argue about this like normal people without throwing in crazy KKK and Nazi arguments. Is abortion really that bad?[/quote]
Is killing an innocent with legal blessing bad to you or not?

I can comprehend someone supporting abortion because they deny the humanity of the unborn. That follows a logical progression.

I can follow someone who says the unborn are human, but they are of less importance because they are unborn.

Or because they are defenseless and weak.

Or because it's convenient.

Or for population control.

What I cannot understand is someone who thinks that abortion kills a child, but since other people don't see it as a child, we should let it happen. That makes absolutely no sense.

[Socrates]

[quote name='track2004' post='1135134' date='Dec 4 2006, 08:55 PM']
Can we just argue about this like normal people without throwing in crazy KKK and Nazi arguments. Is abortion really [i]that[/i] bad?
[/quote]
Yes.

[pcabibi]

[quote name='Winchester' post='1135189' date='Dec 4 2006, 10:28 PM']
So why should we force any conception of humanity on anyone?
Is killing an innocent with legal blessing bad to you or not?

I can comprehend someone supporting abortion because they deny the humanity of the unborn. That follows a logical progression.

I can follow someone who says the unborn are human, but they are of less importance because they are unborn.

Or because they are defenseless and weak.

Or because it's convenient.

Or for population control.

What I cannot understand is someone who thinks that abortion kills a child, but since other people don't see it as a child, we should let it happen. That makes absolutely no sense.
[/quote]

We've been trying to explain it. God gave us free will. To infringe on choices a human being can make is effectively playing god. (not that abortion or murder isn't) but that choice would be limited to that mother and that person... not the far ranging spectrum of society. The ability to make a choice is freedom. I'm sorry but I personally feel that the freedom for people to make a choice is probably the most critical idea that needs protecting.

Edited December 5, 2006 by JClives

[Winchester]

[quote name='JClives' post='1135202' date='Dec 4 2006, 09:41 PM']
We've been trying to explain it. God gave us free will. To infringe on choices a human being can make is effectively playing god. (not that abortion or murder isn't) but that choice would be limited to that mother and that person... not the far ranging spectrum of society. The ability to make a choice is freedom. I'm sorry but I personally feel that the freedom for people to make a choice is probably the most critical idea that needs protecting.
[/quote]

So at what point do you feel a human life has enough of a far ranging effect on society to warrant protection under the law?

[pcabibi]

[quote name='Winchester' post='1135211' date='Dec 4 2006, 10:50 PM']
So at what point do you feel a human life has enough of a far ranging effect on society to warrant protection under the law?
[/quote]

I never said human life has to have a far ranging effect on society to warrent protection. I'm saying that the ability to make a choice for ALL humans in this society needs protection.

If we get rid of that then the consequenses will be grave. I'm sorry I look at women as more than just a vessel for children to be born in. I will never reduce them to that, and that's what you are doing if you tell them they have to have a baby no matter what the circumstances are surrounding thier pregnancy.

yes life should be protected.. but not at the expense of individual freedom. That's how I feel.

[Aloysius]

The Jewish people were citizens of Germany. They were dependent upon the Nazi Government for many things. The Nazi government had every right to get rid of them as a problem. You are illustrating the point: your mindset in regards to fetuses is the exact same mindset the Nazis had in regards to the Jews. Same justifications. Same everything. This is not the famed reductio ad nazium because, well, we are not proposing "hitler supported x, therefore x is evil"... we are saying "you oppose x thing hitler did, this is the same thing as x (actually even worse), therefore you should oppose this as well"

Basically, JClives, you have admitted you believe in a woman's right to choose to murder an individual human being.

"is abortion really that bad?" it's worse. absolutely worse. the death of an innocent baby is far worse than the death of anyone killed in the hollocaust.

mitigating circumstances do not excuse from the facts; that a life is a burden to someone does not take away that one's right to live

your position is logically inconsistent. if you wish to say that the fetus is not a person, then logically your position would flow from that: the woman in whom this non-person is growing would have every right to choose its fate. but if you claim the fetus to be a person, then logically flowing from that, at least if you adhere to our basic fundamental societatal beleif that murder is wrong, would be that it is the person's right to life which trumps the woman's right to choose (in the same way no one construes the right to choose with a licence to kill... you have to be a double-0 to get that licence)

[Winchester]

[quote name='JClives' post='1135224' date='Dec 4 2006, 10:10 PM']
I never said human life has to have a far ranging effect on society to warrent protection. [/quote] [quote]I'm saying that the ability to make a choice for ALL humans in this society needs protection.[/quote]

Then what do you mean by this?
[quote] but that choice would be limited to that mother and that person... not the far ranging spectrum of society.[/quote]


[quote]I'm saying that the ability to make a choice for ALL humans in this society needs protection.[/quote]
Which choices? If you wish to protect ALL humans, why remove the protection for the unborn?

[quote]If we get rid of that then the consequenses will be grave. I'm sorry I look at women as more than just a vessel for children to be born in. I will never reduce them to that, and that's what you are doing if you tell them they have to have a baby no matter what the circumstances are surrounding thier pregnancy. [/quote]
Honestly, how dare you.
You have made a gross miscalculation in basically accusing me of lying. I have given you my reasoning and you have just leveled a disgusting charge at me. Further, it's a statement you have not given me the simple respect of proving. It is empty rhetoric, and emotional argument.

[quote]yes life should be protected.. but not at the expense of individual freedom. That's how I feel.
[/quote]
And where shall we draw the line? Every law is at the expense of someone's personal freedom.

[Guest Bestial Lust]

What if the female was raped and she wishes to abort the child? Why should she be forced to have a child she never wanted, who could change her life (not necessarily for the best)? Isn't a child supposed to be created through love and in love between two people (in the Catholic faith)? So why shouldn't she be allowed to abort when this child is not a symbol of love and was not created out out love but out of pure infatuation?
Comparing abortion to Nazi practices is ridiculous. In the first stages of inpregmentation the zygote is but cells. It's like removing a tumour or a number of cells from the body. Why shouldn't it be allowed? As long as abortion doesn't become the common contraceptive, and replaces birth control pills, women should have the freedom to choose whether they want to have children or not.

[pcabibi]

[quote name='Aloysius' post='1135234' date='Dec 4 2006, 11:15 PM']
The Jewish people were citizens of Germany. They were dependent upon the Nazi Government for many things. The Nazi government had every right to get rid of them as a problem. You are illustrating the point: your mindset in regards to fetuses is the exact same mindset the Nazis had in regards to the Jews. Same justifications. Same everything. This is not the famed reductio ad nazium because, well, we are not proposing "hitler supported x, therefore x is evil"... we are saying "you oppose x thing hitler did, this is the same thing as x (actually even worse), therefore you should oppose this as well"

Basically, JClives, you have admitted you believe in a woman's right to choose to murder an individual human being.

"is abortion really that bad?" it's worse. absolutely worse. the death of an innocent baby is far worse than the death of anyone killed in the hollocaust.

mitigating circumstances do not excuse from the facts; that a life is a burden to someone does not take away that one's right to live

your position is logically inconsistent. if you wish to say that the fetus is not a person, then logically your position would flow from that: the woman in whom this non-person is growing would have every right to choose its fate. but if you claim the fetus to be a person, then logically flowing from that, at least if you adhere to our basic fundamental societatal beleif that murder is wrong, would be that it is the person's right to life which trumps the woman's right to choose (in the same way no one construes the right to choose with a licence to kill... you have to be a double-0 to get that licence)
[/quote]

I don't understand what's so hard to understand about my standpoint. A person's right to decide for themself is spiritually more significant to me than life. whatever happend to the morals about saving souls before saving lives?

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='Bestial Lust' post='1135250' date='Dec 4 2006, 11:25 PM']
What if the female was raped and she wishes to abort the child? Why should she be forced to have a child she never wanted, who could change her life (not necessarily for the best)? Isn't a child supposed to be created through love and in love between two people (in the Catholic faith)? So why shouldn't she be allowed to abort when this child is not a symbol of love and was not created out out love but out of pure infatuation?
Comparing abortion to Nazi practices is ridiculous. In the first stages of inpregmentation the zygote is but cells. It's like removing a tumour or a number of cells from the body. Why shouldn't it be allowed? As long as abortion doesn't become the common contraceptive, and replaces birth control pills, women should have the freedom to choose whether they want to have children or not.
[/quote]
Because you are murdering a child for the crime of the parent. If your parent committed a heinous crime, should someone have the right to murder you?

How do you know the woman is incapable to love this child?

If we aborted all babies born from "inftuation" the world would be fairly depopulated. Tumors do not turn into children.

[Kosh]

JClives, is murder in general ok? It infringes ALL THE TIME on the killers freedom. Can I walk up to a random person and shoot him? How 'bout my dad? or little brother? you gonna infringe on my freedom? Could a mom kill her 2 year old kid?

[pcabibi]

[quote name='Kosh' post='1135270' date='Dec 4 2006, 11:47 PM']
JClives, is murder in general ok? It infringes ALL THE TIME on the killers freedom. Can I walk up to a random person and shoot him? How 'bout my dad? or little brother? you gonna infringe on my freedom? Could a mom kill her 2 year old kid?
[/quote]

Of course not. But in none of those examples is the victim attached to the mother's uterous wall.