Poll: Are You Pro Choice Or Pro Life?

[cmotherofpirl]

I have always considered the abortionist guilty of premeditated murder, but the US Court disagrees.

[pcabibi]

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' post='1135264' date='Dec 4 2006, 11:41 PM']
I have always considered the abortionist guilty of premeditated murder, but the US Court disagrees.
[/quote]

so would you support the death penalty for the mother who had an abortion?

[track2004]

[quote name='Socrates' post='1135200' date='Dec 4 2006, 10:39 PM']
If an embryo of a human being isn't human, then what is it?
[/quote]

A group of cells which may or may not develop into an organism. OR and Italian death metal band OR a song by the J-rock group Dir en grey.

[Farsight one]

Does not compute. Heres some logic for you

Either the embryo is human or it isn't. If it is human, argument over. If it is not human, then it is non-human. An embryo that develops and is born is human. Therefore, at some point it changes from non-human to human. By technical definition, it's DNA would alter drastically. This is impossible. Therefore it is human. Argument over.

Edited December 5, 2006 by Farsight one

[Aloysius]

I respect more the more logically consistent argument which argues that the fetus is not a human person. Anyone who says that it is, but it should not be illegal for the mother to kill it, is so morally depraved and lacking of any common sense of moral decency that I can't find a shred of common ground.

I have more common ground with someone who agrees with me, and with the large majority of moral philosophers throuhgout all time cross-culturally, that any living human person ought to be protected against the choice of any other living human person to end their life. If you don't agree with that statement as an absolute moral precept about human life, then really you hold a position so sub-human and morally depraved as to be untenable by any civilized human being.

and if you do hold to that moral precept, and you hold that the fetus is a unique human person, then it directly follows that you would hold that abortion should be considered a crime. what I find absolutely mind-boggling is that anyone should break the link in that chain with the basic moral precept rather than the idea of the fetus as a person. if one is to support the right to choose abortion: the chain ought to be broken on whether or not the fetus is a human person.

[Theoketos]

Just to clarify:

The death penalty is not wrong per se. But it is mostly likely wrong in our country because we have bloodless means of retributive justice.

You may not disagree with the frist statement, but you may with the second and be in good standing with the Catholic Church.

[got2luvjc]

i think the church says that putting someone to death is only ok if it is THE ONLY way to stop death. by that, I mean that unless this person is dead, he/she [b]WILL[/b] kill others. example: an inmate finding ways to kill other prisoners and guards

thats what i think sum1 told me

[xTrishaxLynnx]

[quote name='got2luvjc' post='1136640' date='Dec 6 2006, 03:20 PM']
i think the church says that putting someone to death is only ok if it is THE ONLY way to stop death. by that, I mean that unless this person is dead, he/she [b]WILL[/b] kill others. example: an inmate finding ways to kill other prisoners and guards

thats what i think sum1 told me
[/quote]

That makes sense... it's the only way the death penalty makes much sense to me.

[quote name='Princess' post='1135119' date='Dec 4 2006, 07:24 PM']

I get so sad thinking about all thoses moments that are gone forever, once that baby is gone.
[/quote]

[Socrates]

Once again:

[quote][b]Not all moral issues have the same moral weight as abortion and euthanasia.[/b] For example, if a Catholic were to be at odds with the Holy Father on the application of capital punishment or on the decision to wage war, he would not for that reason be considered unworthy to present himself to receive Holy Communion. While the Church exhorts civil authorities to seek peace, not war, and to exercise discretion and mercy in imposing punishment on criminals, it may still be permissible to take up arms to repel an aggressor or to have recourse to capital punishment. [b]There may be a legitimate diversity of opinion even among Catholics about waging war and applying the death penalty, but not however with regard to abortion and euthanasia.[/b][/quote]
(Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger, Letter to the U.S. Bishops on denying Communion to Pro-abortion Politicians, no. 3)

And here's St. Thomas Aquinas, the "Angelic Doctor" regarding Capital Punishment:
[url="http://www.newadvent.org/summa/3064.htm#2"]Whether it is lawful to kill sinners? (Summa Theologica Secunda Secundae Pars, Question 64, article 2)[/url]

[MichaelFilo]

Lets be honest, from a purely biological standpoint Congress has said there is "overwhelming evidence" that life begins at conception in it's report. I don't think many biological arguements can be made very effectivly.

All that is left is an arguement that someone has the right to murder at some point if it more convinient or more pleasing to them. It would say that would be more amoral than immoral, but if i wasn't bound by the Church to respect life, it'd probably be where I stood.

[Lil Red]

[quote name='track2004' post='1135052' date='Dec 4 2006, 03:59 PM']For a long time an embroy is a mass of cells that has no hope of survival outside the woman's body. Also convention... I mean we don't have funerals for spontaneous (natural) abortions, the unborn aren't heirs (and don't share the rights we do by law). If there is a miscarriage then we obviously mourn, [u]but those usually happen late in the pregnancy when the child would be viable.[/u] There are other arguments that would make all mine moot, but these are some of the common arguments that abortions (espically early in the gestation) are okay because the embroy isn't human.[/quote]underlined emphasis is mine.
[quote]Although statistics can vary slightly from one source to the next, here is a general account (based primarily on information provided by the March of Dimes) of the frequency of miscarriages in the United States:

--There are about 4.4 million confirmed pregnancies in the U.S. every year.

--900,000 to 1 million of those end in pregnancy losses EVERY year.

--[b]More than 500,000 pregnancies each year end in miscarriage (occurring during the first 20 weeks).[/b]

--Approximately 26,000 end in stillbirth (considered stillbirth after 20 weeks)

--Approximately 19,000 end in infant death during the first month.

--Approximately 39,000 end in infant death during the first year.

--Approximately 1 in 4 pregnancies end in miscarriage; some estimates are as high as 1 in 3. If you include loss that occurs before a positive pregnancy test, some estimate that 40% of all conceptions result in loss.

--[b]Approximately 75% of all miscarriages occur in the first trimester.[/b]

--An estimated 80% of all miscarriages are single miscarriages. The vast majority of women suffering one miscarriage can expect to have a normal pregnancy next time.

--An estimated 19% of the adult population has experienced the death of a child (this includes miscarriages through adult-aged children).[/quote]

i've bolded what i think is pertinent to your post. i've had a miscarriage - it was within the first 6 weeks of the baby's life. and i mourned. and if i could've had a funeral for that child, i would've. a lot of moms who miscarry would've. and when people ask me about the child that i carry now, if it is my first, i tell them it will be my first full term baby, but second child. because the child that i lost was part of me, and i will always mourn the loss of that child. insensitive remarks like yours are what women have to go through when they lose a child through miscarriage.

[Mercy me]

Really there was a choice made. The choice was to have sex. If God chose to bless the union with new life so be it. The question is whether people should have the right to kill another because they do not want to be responsible for the consequences of their actions.

This does not apply in the case of rape, of course.

[prose]

[url="http://www.umberttheunborn.com/"]http://www.umberttheunborn.com/[/url]

To me the cartoon on the first page says it all.

[got2luvjc]

[quote name='prose' post='1137906' date='Dec 8 2006, 12:21 AM']
[url="http://www.umberttheunborn.com/"]http://www.umberttheunborn.com/[/url]

To me the cartoon on the first page says it all.
[/quote]

and how true it is.

[Mercy me]

[quote name='prose' post='1137906' date='Dec 8 2006, 12:21 AM']
[url="http://www.umberttheunborn.com/"]http://www.umberttheunborn.com/[/url]

To me the cartoon on the first page says it all.
[/quote]