hyperdulia again Posted July 29, 2003 Share Posted July 29, 2003 "On holidays we have wine with our meals." No you don't! last Christmas, when I was over, Kool-Aid was the drink of the evening. That'd be really funny if had been over last Christmas, but you didn't invite me. :o Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cmotherofpirl Posted July 29, 2003 Share Posted July 29, 2003 Well if you start walking now you will probably be in time for Christmas. Don't forget your toothbrush. THe dog ate my extra one again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Winchester Posted July 29, 2003 Share Posted July 29, 2003 Something does not become moral or immoral based upon legislation. It's perfectly okay to drink underage, because the laws are arbitrary. In moderation, it's okay, just like for those in the (current) legal drinking age. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ironmonk Posted July 29, 2003 Share Posted July 29, 2003 http://www.lifeteen.com/DocQandA.asp?Actio...ion=View&ID=630 Then: http://www.lifeteen.com/DocQandA.asp?Actio...ion=View&ID=635 I agree with the above articles... and with Dust... check your laws. We are to submit ourselves to the authorities, unless the Church says otherwise. As far as mortal sin or venial sin... does it really matter? Only if you need to know if you should go to confession because of it. No sin is ok. Venial sins are like foxes loose in the hen house, they can lead us into bigger trouble. Everything that goes on in our lives comes down to one thing.... How much we love God. i.e. Is it worth the risk of sinning? God Bless, Love in Christ & Mary ironmonk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hyperdulia again Posted July 29, 2003 Share Posted July 29, 2003 *takes a sip of nightly vodka screw driver (sound sophisticated 'til you find out it's in a big plastic cup and is like 99.99999999999999999% vodka)* yes...yes...morality is determined by human law... *makes mental note to move to canada or the netherlands* Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kilroy the Ninja Posted July 29, 2003 Share Posted July 29, 2003 All this talk about drinking makes me want a sloe sunrise.... (that's your fault Hyper!). I'm afraid I'm on the fence about this one. I'm a firm believer that if you can go to war and die for your country then you should be able to enjoy an alcoholic beverage now and then. Having a beer in the evening or with a meal is innocent enough. But the church does say we are supposed to follow the rules of the governing establishment. However, I think our government's got a screw loose - allowing abortion - so I dunno. Does that make it valid in the Vatican's eyes? Is the Vatican advocating that we should follow the screwed up laws of our country even if it (the Vatican) disagrees with them? I dunno. But I am going to go make that sloe sunrise now... Ciao! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chrysologus Posted July 29, 2003 Share Posted July 29, 2003 Now this is interesting. Too conservatives are saying that it's okay to drink if you're under 21. I'm intrigued, and I think that I want to be convinced, but aren't we supposed to obey the laws of the land, Winchester and Don John? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kilroy the Ninja Posted July 29, 2003 Share Posted July 29, 2003 Hey! What about me??!!! I'm conservative too!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dUSt Posted July 29, 2003 Share Posted July 29, 2003 I think I might change my mind on this one... Morality shouldn't be defined by legislation. So... If you were to drink under age, it wouldn't neccesarily be immoral--rather, unlawful. The immoral act is breaking the law, not drinking. So... If you go over the speed limit, you are also breaking the law. It doesn't neccesarily mean that it is immoral. I know a priest that speeds quite often. (you know who you are, hehehe) With that said, I don't think that breaking certain laws would be considered a mortal sin--rather, a minor sin--if any sin at all. If morality was defined by legislation, then we should all be pro-choice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joyful Posted July 29, 2003 Share Posted July 29, 2003 I disagree with using abortion as an example in this case. The legislation in the case of abortion does not make you have an abortion nor does it require you to be pro-choice. The legislation in the case of drinking does require you to not drink if you're underage. Therefore, "If morality was defined by legislation" then we could still choose to be pro-life and, because of that, morally sound. Basically what I'm saying is this: As far as drinking under the age of 21 and abortion goes there are two choices for each: drink or not drink, have an abortion or not have an abortion. Under one set of laws you can only lawfully choose to do one thing (not drink), under the other set of laws you can do either (abortion or no) which gives you the opportunity to be moral. Does that make sense? Anyway, I just disagree with using it as an example... I do agree that the act of drinking in moderation while under the age of 21 is only unlawful (not immoral), but, as dUSt said, being unlawful is immoral so even though drinking under 21 in and of itself isn't immoral, you still shouldn't do it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
basoldier Posted July 29, 2003 Share Posted July 29, 2003 Sorry, my first post to this phorum, so please forgive me if I accidentally offend. St. Paul in his epistles urges us to restraint for the sake of our weaker brothers (and sisters). As an example, he states when in the presence of a brother coming out of paganism with its sacrifices of meat to idols, when that brother has scruples about eating such meat, it is right to avoid eating such meat, so as not to cause scandal in your brother. The Catechism teaches us about scandal as well: II. Respect for the Dignity of Persons Respect for the souls of others: scandal 2284 Scandal is an attitude or behavior which leads another to do evil. The person who gives scandal becomes his neighbor's tempter. He damages virtue and integrity; he may even draw his brother into spiritual death. Scandal is a grave offense if by deed or omission another is deliberately led into a grave offense. 2285 Scandal takes on a particular gravity by reason of the authority of those who cause it or the weakness of those who are scandalized. It prompted our Lord to utter this curse: "Whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him to have a great millstone fastened round his neck and to be drowned in the depth of the sea."86 Scandal is grave when given by those who by nature or office are obliged to teach and educate others. Jesus reproaches the scribes and Pharisees on this account: he likens them to wolves in sheep's clothing.87 2286 Scandal can be provoked by laws or institutions, by fashion or opinion. Therefore, they are guilty of scandal who establish laws or social structures leading to the decline of morals and the corruption of religious practice, or to "social conditions that, intentionally or not, make Christian conduct and obedience to the Commandments difficult and practically impossible."88 This is also true of business leaders who make rules encouraging fraud, teachers who provoke their children to anger,89 or manipulators of public opinion who turn it away from moral values. 2287 Anyone who uses the power at his disposal in such a way that it leads others to do wrong becomes guilty of scandal and responsible for the evil that he has directly or indirectly encouraged. "Temptations to sin are sure to come; but woe to him by whom they come!"90 So it might be a better course of action to not give the appearance of offense by not exercising your moral right to drink in some circumstances when under age, despite having the moral freedom to do so. Pax! Yours in Christ, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Winchester Posted July 29, 2003 Share Posted July 29, 2003 Chrys, One may perhaps refer to me as conservative, but that doesn't mean I believe all legislation should be followed simply because it exists. I am actually liberal, as I believe the laws of the US should be radically changed. I am Catholic, so the manner of my political liberalism is Catholic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jasJis Posted July 29, 2003 Share Posted July 29, 2003 I've just got to voice my opinion. I'm from the era when the drinking age was 18, the same as the age to vote and be drafted. The laws were changed by vote. The question of drinking age came up because of the many problems with 18, 19, & 20 year old drinkers. I, and my friends were drinking then. It was a problem for all of us, but then again, that was only a limited sampling of the entire US population. Underage drinking is not moral. I do not let my kids even sip alcoholic drinks. I was ambivalant about this until discussing this with my wife who was dead set against any underage drinking, though she and her brother grew up being allowed to drink with parental supervision. The rightness or wrongness of the law is not the overreaching point. It's the morality of the law. The question one has to ask is if obeying the law creates a bad moral outcome. The Catechism is also very clear on this. Governments are legitimate powers and serve to maintain order. Catholics are to respect laws to foster social order. Laws can only be broken for the greater moral good. What greater moral good is the result of underage drinking? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cmotherofpirl Posted July 29, 2003 Share Posted July 29, 2003 When I was in college and had a jewish roommate I celebrated the SAbbath with her. Everybody in the family had a glass of wine with the meal. Every New Years we drink champagne and toast all our dearly departed dead. Is that a sin - hardly . Is it immoral - no. On holidays we serve wine with dinner. On Holy Thursday we celebrate with a seder - lamb, bread and wine. Is it immoral or sinful? Should I stop serving wine on THanksgiving with grandma? Should I tell the Italians, Greeks and Spanish in the family no we can't serve wine with dinner anymore? It is immoral and sinful to go out and get drunk in the streets for the sole purpose of getting wasted. It is illegal in some states to buy alcohol or go in a bar until you are 21. But family get-togethers and holidays hardly are in that category. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
electricdisk Posted July 29, 2003 Share Posted July 29, 2003 I haven't read everyones answer, so sorry if this is duplicated. I live in Texas. I have been told that it is legal for underage kids to drink in restaurants if you are with your parents - kids can drink IN PUBLIC! LEGAL CODE FOLLOWS - From the TABC website Q:When may a minor legally possess an alcoholic beverage? A: While in the course and scope of employment as an employee of a licensee or permittee. Also, if the minor is in the visible presence of an adult parent, guardian, or spouse or other adult to whom he has been committed by a court and if the minor is under the immediate supervision of a commissioned peace officer engaged in enforcing the provisions of this Code. Cool huh? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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