ReformationNow Posted July 30, 2003 Share Posted July 30, 2003 but morality's determined by civil law hon'. god moves with the will of man. So if Adultery, homosexuality, incest, beastiality, murder and stealing are made okay by civil law it is moral? Give me a break! God gave us a moral law. Man is not in charge of that. God's law IS moral law. God said it, that settles it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jasJis Posted July 30, 2003 Share Posted July 30, 2003 but morality's determined by civil law hon'. god moves with the will of man. Haven't your read the Catechism excerpts, or are you just choosing to ignore them. Civil law derives it's authority from Natural Law and Natural Law is established in Man as God created him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
logos Posted July 30, 2003 Share Posted July 30, 2003 what in natural law says that a glass of wine at 15 is wrong? hyper- do you honestly think that jasjis and others are saying that natural law is telling us that a glass at 15 is wrong? You know that the issue is not drinking, it's authority. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aloysius Posted July 30, 2003 Share Posted July 30, 2003 therz 2 many pages here, and frankly, im not gonna read them all im just gonna say that you should bow to authority unless it is for the greater good laws made by man are not morally binding, so it is not immoral to drink but it is immoral to break the law so the sin he commits it breaking the law maybe that's already been said, frankly, i'm not reading 12 pages to find out lol this seems to be an interesting topic 4 all is there a record num of pages for a phorum topic? this seems 2 b gettin high Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azriel Posted July 30, 2003 Share Posted July 30, 2003 therz 2 many pages here, and frankly, im not gonna read them all im just gonna say that you should bow to authority unless it is for the greater good laws made by man are not morally binding, so it is not immoral to drink but it is immoral to break the law so the sin he commits it breaking the law maybe that's already been said, frankly, i'm not reading 12 pages to find out lol this seems to be an interesting topic 4 all is there a record num of pages for a phorum topic? this seems 2 b gettin high LOL Al - this isn't even close. The old phorum had a couple at 30+ pages But I dig your post. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ironmonk Posted July 30, 2003 Share Posted July 30, 2003 by the way.... After my prom a girl had a party at her house...her parents were home but we were all drinking, and drinking responsibly...the cops happened to be driving by and stopped in...took a look around....saw everything was in order....and left...without issuing tickets or arresting anyone They didn't want to deal with the paperwork. They do not make the laws. You still broke the law. It doesn't make it ok because you didn't get in trouble. Are you wiser than the Church? Well, I've heard differently and still don't intend to not drink. And you heard wrong. You were shown what the law is, and refuse it. You've been shown the truth, you reject it. Your blood is on your own hands now. We have met our responsibility as Catholics to inform our brethern of the Truth... We have even taken it to the Church. You refuse to listen. Because you want it your way. If you would stop being so self centered and focused on helping others, maybe your burdens wouldn't be so heavy. This life is not about "me, myself, and I", it's about doing for "you and them". I mean this with love, but I want you to look at the lives of the saints... they put others always first, they obeyed.... They were happy. Now, do some study on people who commit and try to commit suicide... they are focused on themselves. Running from a problem or problems... because of the self focus. If people would put others first, and obey as our Church teaches, everyone would be much happier. And to put it bluntly... stop pushing the ssa thing. It's not funny. It's not the will of God, it is the will of men and I would think that it's almost blaphemous to incinuate such a thing. Are you here to cry and whine about how tuff you have it? Did you not get enough attention from your family growing up? Is this the way you get people to focus on you? Do you wish to bring scandal to the other Catholics here? If not, stop defying the Church. By pushing the ssa thing, it's the same as Dashel pushing abortion... it makes us all look bad... It hurts the Church. God Bless, Love in Christ & Mary ironmonk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ironmonk Posted July 30, 2003 Share Posted July 30, 2003 therz 2 many pages here, and frankly, im not gonna read them all im just gonna say that you should bow to authority unless it is for the greater good laws made by man are not morally binding, so it is not immoral to drink but it is immoral to break the law so the sin he commits it breaking the law maybe that's already been said, frankly, i'm not reading 12 pages to find out lol this seems to be an interesting topic 4 all is there a record num of pages for a phorum topic? this seems 2 b gettin high Yes... we've even quoted the Catechism on the matter. Since it is the official teachings of the Catholic Church. God Bless, Love in Christ & Mary ironmonk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hyperdulia again Posted July 30, 2003 Share Posted July 30, 2003 (edited) it is difficult ennough to not do that which my holy mother the church says is wrong. i could care less what a drunken demon-woman like the united states gov tells me to do. it is evil. it crawled up from the pit of hell in 1776 and overthrew an anointed king 1783 it moved from calling people property to murdering children. it is not valid, it's claim to legitimacy is nihil. Vive le Pape! Long live the Queen! Edited July 30, 2003 by hyperdulia again Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ironmonk Posted July 30, 2003 Share Posted July 30, 2003 it is difficult ennough to not do that which my hooly mother the church says is wrong. i could care less what a drunken demon-women like the united states gov tells me to do. it is evil. it crawled up from the pit of hell in 1776 and overthhrew an anointed king 1783 it moved from calling people property to murdering children. it is not valid, it's claim to legitimacy is nihhil. Vive le Pape! Long live the Queen! Evil things do serve a purpose. Judas served a purpose. As the Church teaches us to obey the authorities, we must. Please read this page, so you can get the whole picture... http://www.usccb.org/catechism/text/pt3sec...t1chpt2art2.htm ARTICLE 2 PARTICIPATION IN SOCIAL LIFE I. Authority 1897 "Human society can be neither well-ordered nor prosperous unless it has some people invested with legitimate authority to preserve its institutions and to devote themselves as far as is necessary to work and care for the good of all."15 By "authority" one means the quality by virtue of which persons or institutions make laws and give orders to men and expect obedience from them. 1898 Every human community needs an authority to govern it.16 The foundation of such authority lies in human nature. It is necessary for the unity of the state. Its role is to ensure as far as possible the common good of the society. 1899 The authority required by the moral order derives from God: "Let every person be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those that exist have been instituted by God. Therefore he who resists the authorities resists what God has appointed, and those who resist will incur judgment."17 1900 The duty of obedience requires all to give due honor to authority and to treat those who are charged to exercise it with respect, and, insofar as it is deserved, with gratitude and good-will. Pope St. Clement of Rome provides the Church's most ancient prayer for political authorities:18 "Grant to them, Lord, health, peace, concord, and stability, so that they may exercise without offense the sovereignty that you have given them. Master, heavenly King of the ages, you give glory, honor, and power over the things of earth to the sons of men. Direct, Lord, their counsel, following what is pleasing and acceptable in your sight, so that by exercising with devotion and in peace and gentleness the power that you have given to them, they may find favor with you."19 1901 If authority belongs to the order established by God, "the choice of the political regime and the appointment of rulers are left to the free decision of the citizens."20 The diversity of political regimes is morally acceptable, provided they serve the legitimate good of the communities that adopt them. Regimes whose nature is contrary to the natural law, to the public order, and to the fundamental rights of persons cannot achieve the common good of the nations on which they have been imposed. 1902 Authority does not derive its moral legitimacy from itself. It must not behave in a despotic manner, but must act for the common good as a "moral force based on freedom and a sense of responsibility":21 A human law has the character of law to the extent that it accords with right reason, and thus derives from the eternal law. Insofar as it falls short of right reason it is said to be an unjust law, and thus has not so much the nature of law as of a kind of violence.22 1903 Authority is exercised legitimately only when it seeks the common good of the group concerned and if it employs morally licit means to attain it. If rulers were to enact unjust laws or take measures contrary to the moral order, such arrangements would not be binding in conscience. In such a case, "authority breaks down completely and results in shameful abuse."23 1904 "It is preferable that each power be balanced by other powers and by other spheres of responsibility which keep it within proper bounds. This is the principle of the ‘rule of law,' in which the law is sovereign and not the arbitrary will of men."24 II. The Common Good 1905 In keeping with the social nature of man, the good of each individual is necessarily related to the common good, which in turn can be defined only in reference to the human person: Do not live entirely isolated, having retreated into yourselves, as if you were already justified, but gather instead to seek the common good together.25 1906 By common good is to be understood "the sum total of social conditions which allow people, either as groups or as individuals, to reach their fulfillment more fully and more easily."26 The common good concerns the life of all. It calls for prudence from each, and even more from those who exercise the office of authority. It consists of three essential elements: 1907 First, the common good presupposes respect for the person as such. In the name of the common good, public authorities are bound to respect the fundamental and inalienable rights of the human person. Society should permit each of its members to fulfill his vocation. In particular, the common good resides in the conditions for the exercise of the natural freedoms indispensable for the development of the human vocation, such as "the right to act according to a sound norm of conscience and to safeguard . . . privacy, and rightful freedom also in matters of religion."27 1908 Second, the common good requires the social well-being and development of the group itself. Development is the epitome of all social duties. Certainly, it is the proper function of authority to arbitrate, in the name of the common good, between various particular interests; but it should make accessible to each what is needed to lead a truly human life: food, clothing, health, work, education and culture, suitable information, the right to establish a family, and so on.28 1909 Finally, the common good requires peace, that is, the stability and security of a just order. It presupposes that authority should ensure by morally acceptable means the security of society and its members. It is the basis of the right to legitimate personal and collective defence. 1910 Each human community possesses a common good which permits it to be recognized as such; it is in the political community that its most complete realization is found. It is the role of the state to defend and promote the common good of civil society, its citizens, and intermediate bodies. 1911 Human interdependence is increasing and gradually spreading throughout the world. The unity of the human family, embracing people who enjoy equal natural dignity, implies a universal common good. This good calls for an organization of the community of nations able to "provide for the different needs of men; this will involve the sphere of social life to which belong questions of food, hygiene, education, . . . and certain situations arising here and there, as for example . . . alleviating the miseries of refugees dispersed throughout the world, and assisting migrants and their families."29 1912 The common good is always oriented towards the progress of persons: "The order of things must be subordinate to the order of persons, and not the other way around."30 This order is founded on truth, built up in justice, and animated by love. III. Responsibility and Participation 1913 "Participation" is the voluntary and generous engagement of a person in social interchange. It is necessary that all participate, each according to his position and role, in promoting the common good. This obligation is inherent in the dignity of the human person. 1914 Participation is achieved first of all by taking charge of the areas for which one assumes personal responsibility: by the care taken for the education of his family, by conscientious work, and so forth, man participates in the good of others and of society.31 1915 As far as possible citizens should take an active part in public life. The manner of this participation may vary from one country or culture to another. "One must pay tribute to those nations whose systems permit the largest possible number of the citizens to take part in public life in a climate of genuine freedom."32 1916 As with any ethical obligation, the participation of all in realizing the common good calls for a continually renewed conversion of the social partners. Fraud and other subterfuges, by which some people evade the constraints of the law and the prescriptions of societal obligation, must be firmly condemned because they are incompatible with the requirements of justice. Much care should be taken to promote institutions that improve the conditions of human life.33 1917 It is incumbent on those who exercise authority to strengthen the values that inspire the confidence of the members of the group and encourage them to put themselves at the service of others. Participation begins with education and culture. "One is entitled to think that the future of humanity is in the hands of those who are capable of providing the generations to come with reasons for life and optimism."34 IN BRIEF 1918 "There is no authority except from God, and those authorities that exist have been instituted by God" (Rom 13:1). 1919 Every human community needs an authority in order to endure and develop. 1920 "The political community and public authority are based on human nature and therefore . . . belong to an order established by God" (GS 74 § 3). 1921 Authority is exercised legitimately if it is committed to the common good of society. To attain this it must employ morally acceptable means. 1922 The diversity of political regimes is legitimate, provided they contribute to the good of the community. 1923 Political authority must be exercised within the limits of the moral order and must guarantee the conditions for the exercise of freedom. 1924 The common good comprises "the sum total of social conditions which allow people, either as groups or as individuals, to reach their fulfillment more fully and more easily" (GS 26 § 1). 1925 The common good consists of three essential elements: respect for and promotion of the fundamental rights of the person; prosperity, or the development of the spiritual and temporal goods of society; the peace and security of the group and of its members. 1926 The dignity of the human person requires the pursuit of the common good. Everyone should be concerned to create and support institutions that improve the conditions of human life. 1927 It is the role of the state to defend and promote the common good of civil society. The common good of the whole human family calls for an organization of society on the international level. Notes John XXIII, PT 46. Cf. Leo XIII, Immortale Dei; Diuturnum illud. Rom 13:1-2; cf. 1 Pet 2:13-17. Cf. as early as 1 Tim 2:1-2. St. Clement of Rome, Ad Cor. 61: SCh 167, 198-200. GS 74 § 3. GS 74 § 2. St. Thomas Aquinas, STh I-II, 93, 3, ad 2. John XXIII, PT 51. CA 44. Ep. Barnabae, 4, 10: PG 2, 734. GS 26 § 1; cf. GS 74 § 1. GS 26 § 2. Cf. GS 26 § 2. GS 84 § 2. GS 26 § 3. Cf. CA 43. GS 31 § 3. Cf. GS 30 § 1. GS 31 § 3. God Bless, Love in Christ & Mary ironmonk Know this....I only harp because I care. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TempleofVesarius Posted July 30, 2003 Share Posted July 30, 2003 ok so it has be established that the immorality of drinking is in that it breaks the law... and that law was instituted by a government that still thinks it is for the good of the public to keep abortion legal...sorry if i dont trust their judgement...I find it hard to believe that any government that will let's its citizens murder their own children is legitamate under the eyes of God. i dont mean im going to go out and disobey all the laws...many of them make sense....this just happens to not so i dont see why i need to follow it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don John of Austria Posted July 30, 2003 Share Posted July 30, 2003 (edited) Look I showed what 5 pages ago that this Govenment doesn't have just authority--at all, I showed it within the confines of the the Catachism yet dispite my fervent appeals Ironmonk jasjis and everyone else who is throughing a fit about "AUTHORITY" has yet to construct anything resembling an arguement about why this Govenment does have authority. According to ya'lls arguements we Should be listening to queen elizabeth II not some guy in Washington. Oh But you can't give me any justification all you can do is say the same things over and over agian without ever putting forth anything resembling an arguement. Oh and Ironmonk, please do not ever insinuate that I don't understand infallability I was studing it in a semenary when you were running around drinking underage, I understand infallability very well and the Catachism is not an infallable document, enough said. Edited July 30, 2003 by Don John of Austria Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don John of Austria Posted July 30, 2003 Share Posted July 30, 2003 Ironmonk your right evil things can serve a purpose that does not mean that the carry with them authority. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don John of Austria Posted July 30, 2003 Share Posted July 30, 2003 :lol: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ReformationNow Posted July 30, 2003 Share Posted July 30, 2003 i dont mean im going to go out and disobey all the laws...many of them make sense....this just happens to not so i dont see why i need to follow it. Wow! What astounding insight! "I don't like the law, the law doesn't make sense, so, I can disobey this law and not incure the wrath of God." LADIES AND GENTLEMEN, WITNESS THIS IMPECCABLE LOGIC! Following this logic...I don't like the laws against pot, coke, or heroin. Therefore, I shall break these laws 'cause they're stupid. I also don't like the law that tells me to drive a certain speed. This law is stupid, created by an invalid government, so I don't have to obey. I also don't like the law against driving while under the influence. I will drive under the influence because the law is stupid. Wow! I've never felt so free! The law is stupid, so I can do what I want. Me, me, me, I, I, I! Pride! Pride! Pride! This is self-centerdness taken to the extreme! P R SIN D E Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don John of Austria Posted July 30, 2003 Share Posted July 30, 2003 Old enought to know that all this "when I was your age, I thought like you too, but now that I am a few years older everything is differant," stuff is a complete load of carp. Thats right I said carp it is not a bad word thought nazis but a referance to the inventer of the toilet. Sir Crapper Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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