jasJis Posted July 30, 2003 Share Posted July 30, 2003 From me: This speaks to one of your earlier assertions. If you've no answer, say so. Winchester, I have repeatedly posted statements that would answer your question. Breaking the law is moral only if it forces one to break God's law. In fact, we have to break the law in that case. A law stating parents could not allow their children to drink at all even under supervision would have to be followed. Allowing children to drink is not necessary and can be seriously damaging. Keeping children sober and healthy benefits society as a whole. It's a shame that a law would have to be made like that. Current laws provides for parent or guardian supervision (not just any adult) for certain circumstances. There is a reason it's called 'contributing to the delinquency of a minor'. A law forbiding literacy to those of certain economic classes damages the ability of a person to participate fully in society so in effect, it violates a natural law and must be broken by all members of that society. May I also remind those lurkers who aren't going to read all these pages of discussion. This thread was about if it was morally okay for college students that are underage to drink socially with other college students. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ironmonk Posted July 30, 2003 Share Posted July 30, 2003 The Catechism is the official teaching of the Faith. In matters of faith and morals, it is infallible. End of story. I listen to our Pope... I'm Catholic. http://www.usccb.org/catechism/text/fideidepositum.htm APOSTOLIC LETTER FIDEI DEPOSITUM ON THE PUBLICATION OF THE CATECHISM OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH PREPARED FOLLOWING THE SECOND VATICAN ECUMENICAL COUNCIL JOHN PAUL, BISHOP SERVANT OF THE SERVANTS OF GOD FOR EVERLASTING MEMORY The Doctrinal Value of the Text The Catechism of the Catholic Church, which I approved June 25th last and the publication of which I today order by virtue of my Apostolic Authority, is a statement of the Church's faith and of catholic doctrine, attested to or illumined by Sacred Scripture, the Apostolic Tradition, and the Church's Magisterium. I declare it to be a sure norm for teaching the faith and thus a valid and legitimate instrument for ecclesial communion. May it serve the renewal to which the Holy Spirit ceaselessly calls the Church of God, the Body of Christ, on her pilgrimage to the undiminished light of the Kingdom! The approval and publication of the Catechism of the Catholic Church represent a service which the Successor of Peter wishes to offer to the Holy Catholic Church, to all the particular Churches in peace and communion with the Apostolic See: the service, that is, of supporting and confirming the faith of all the Lord Jesus' disciples (cf. Lk 22:32), as well as of strengthening the bonds of unity in the same apostolic faith. Therefore, I ask all the Church's Pastors and the Christian faithful to receive this catechism in a spirit of communion and to use it assiduously in fulfilling their mission of proclaiming the faith and calling people to the Gospel life. This catechism is given to them that it may be a sure and authentic reference text for teaching catholic doctrine and particularly for preparing local catechisms. It is also offered to all the faithful who wish to deepen their knowledge of the unfathomable riches of salvation (cf. Eph 3:8). It is meant to support ecumenical efforts that are moved by the holy desire for the unity of all Christians, showing carefully the content and wondrous harmony of the catholic faith. The Catechism of the Catholic Church, lastly, is offered to every individual who asks us to give an account of the hope that is in us (cf. 1 Pet 3:15) and who wants to know what the Catholic Church believes. ____________________________________________________ You can rationalize all you want, you will still be wrong. There is nothing more to say on the matter, I suggest you study what Infallible means and what is or is not infallible. God Bless, ironmonk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mp15 Posted July 30, 2003 Share Posted July 30, 2003 jas, the evidence you provided in an earlier reply is correct. Underage drinking does have an affect on a child’s (teenagers included) ability to learn and memory retention. That is harmful, well maybe not physically, but definitely mentally. If anyone needs proof then they can look no further than me. My years of teenage drinking have had a serious affect on my ability to communicate and how I retain information today. Peace, Marcus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TempleofVesarius Posted July 30, 2003 Share Posted July 30, 2003 oooooooooookay.... DID NONE OF YOU READ MY LIKE FIRST POST!!!!!!!! THE LAW IS UNCONSTITUTIONAL BECAUSE OF THE WAY IT WAS FORCED ON THE STATES!!!!!!....NOW HOW CAN IT BE A "LEGITEMATE" LAW WHEN THE PEOPLE WHO PUT IT ON THE BOOKS ARE GOING AGAINST THE DOCUMENTS THAT PUT THEM ON THE BOOKS??????? and frankly if I am a "legal adult" the government has ABSOLUTELY NO RIGHT to tell me i can and cannot drink a beer. Dont tell me "ohh now you have the full rights of a contributing citizen" then take away some of my rights, and I dont care what the "statistics" are. If the government doesnt have the RIGHT to impose that law on me, then it is my NATURAL RIGHT to oppose that law. Statistically, african americans are more suceptable to heart disease and cancer, so why dont we outlaw fatty foods for them?...just because its alcohol doesnt change what the law is doing, which is in fact taking away MY RIGHTS. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jasJis Posted July 30, 2003 Share Posted July 30, 2003 Its not just about me... Its about what I BELIEVE IN I believe in a government that upholds the rights of its adult citizens. I believe in a government that doesnt controll EVERY ASPECT OF ITS CITEZENS LIFE please dont belittle my arguements by misconstruing my words...jas did the same thing already ToV, Show me where I belittled your arguement by misconstruing them. Read the Catechism in the sections indicated with the quotes I provided. You can check it out online in the Reading Room. Just jot down the paragraph numbers so you can go and read the entire sections along with the footnotes and references that quote Scripture, Encylicals, and writings from Church Doctors. Reality and facts are limited to just what you believe. I already pointed out the difference of 18 year olds being able to vote and serve in the military is different then allowing them to drink in a bar. The effect on society is different. Society makes the rules. Society derives it's authority through the natural law that exists in man's knowledge through God's Divine creation. Not letting you drink isn't controling every aspect of a citizen's life. The Catechism says society needs order and institutions as a fact of the human nature God created us with. We are also told we are to support and participate in Society. Drinking beer does not support, nor participate in the order of Society. This is America which is freer than most (if not all) other countries. Start a petition. Join a movement. Write letters to you congressman. Use intelligence and logic to voice your opinion. Show me some Church teachings that support the idea that a societal institution should not have drinking laws. Show me some evidence or argument that limiting the drinking age by society is morally wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jasJis Posted July 30, 2003 Share Posted July 30, 2003 so instead of educating the population on dangers of alcohol ABUSE, we have big brother make a law against it. No. We do both. Do parents wait until they can explain about plaque and tooth decay before they make the rules kids need to brush their teeth? No. If the kids are bright enough to ask, parents would explain. It's the same thing here. The law exists for valid reasons. If you are bright enough to question why the law exists, there's plenty of explaination. Back to the crux of the debate. What does the Catholic Church say about the morality of breaking the law? How does it apply in this situation? We are talking about college age kids drinking socially with othe college age kids before they are of legal drinking age. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ReformationNow Posted July 30, 2003 Share Posted July 30, 2003 oooooooooookay.... DID NONE OF YOU READ MY LIKE FIRST POST!!!!!!!! THE LAW IS UNCONSTITUTIONAL BECAUSE OF THE WAY IT WAS FORCED ON THE STATES!!!!!!....NOW HOW CAN IT BE A "LEGITEMATE" LAW WHEN THE PEOPLE WHO PUT IT ON THE BOOKS ARE GOING AGAINST THE DOCUMENTS THAT PUT THEM ON THE BOOKS??????? and frankly if I am a "legal adult" the government has ABSOLUTELY NO RIGHT to tell me i can and cannot drink a beer. Dont tell me "ohh now you have the full rights of a contributing citizen" then take away some of my rights, and I dont care what the "statistics" are. If the government doesnt have the RIGHT to impose that law on me, then it is my NATURAL RIGHT to oppose that law. Statistically, african americans are more suceptable to heart disease and cancer, so why dont we outlaw fatty foods for them?...just because its alcohol doesnt change what the law is doing, which is in fact taking away MY RIGHTS. LOL! You are so cracking me up right now. Hey, here's a fun question...What Would Jesus Do? Yeah, I know it's trite, but think about it. Do you think that Jesus would advocate breaking such a trivial law? Certainly not. I believe that taxes are an infringement on my rights and are unconstitutional.Does that mean I shouldn't obey them? No. Take a look at your next post after this one. That one is even funnier. "It's about what I believe in." Come on. That is absurd. It has nothing to do with what you believe in. This is a valid law, regardless of what you think of it. This law does not go against any of God's commands for how we are to live our life. You are a classic example of the prideful attitude of people today. It's all about you isn't it? You want it. You don't want to wait. The government shouldn't make you wait. A government that makes you wait is bad. Boo-hoo. Grow up. Get over it. Life is not fair. You have NO natural right to disobey this law. The fact of the matter is, the government DOES have the right to impose this law on you. The government is set up by God. Laws that do not conflict with what God tells us to do ARE valid. Having a beer is not a necessity. It is a luxury. It is a privilege. It is not a right until you become the legal age that the government has decreed. You have no idea what Big Brother really is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TempleofVesarius Posted July 30, 2003 Share Posted July 30, 2003 first im not running from resistance...i can take all the resistance you can throw at me. I post while at work and i could be doing more productive things than communicating with a group of closed minded people who will disregard and laugh at anything I say because of my age. second, I know we are no where close to what hes talking about in "1984"...but why get started on that path?...I wasnt saying our government is big brother to a "t"...i was saying this one law is big brother like. I have expressed my points on this topic...I only came back to defend myself....Now excuse me while I go have a margarita with my uncle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ironmonk Posted July 30, 2003 Share Posted July 30, 2003 temp... Are all governments 'big brother'? There are reasons for laws. Maybe you don't understand them... maybe they are stupid... that's beside the point. To break the law and resist authorities is a sin. Check your state laws on the matter, you might not be sinning, but if you think you are sinning and you do it anyway, it's just as bad as sinning... Intention is a major factor when it comes to sin. If you want to sin, that's totally up to you. You've got that God given right. When we sin, we hurt ourselves, our family, the Church, and mostly God. Something that I try to think about in a moment of temptation is this... "Christ is on the cross. I am facing Him... behind me is the sin that I want to do. Christ says 'choose.'." Is the sin worth turning my back on Christ? No... of course not. Sometimes we fail, that's what confession is for, to help us keep from doing it again. Christ died for our sins... every single one of them. Everytime we sin, it was us that put Christ on the cross. Hope that helps. God Bless, Love in Christ & Mary ironmonk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ReformationNow Posted July 30, 2003 Share Posted July 30, 2003 first im not running from resistance...i can take all the resistance you can throw at me. I post while at work and i could be doing more productive things than communicating with a group of closed minded people who will disregard and laugh at anything I say because of my age. second, I know we are no where close to what hes talking about in "1984"...but why get started on that path?...I wasnt saying our government is big brother to a "t"...i was saying this one law is big brother like. I have expressed my points on this topic...I only came back to defend myself....Now excuse me while I go have a margarita with my uncle. We're the close-minded ones? Son, when I was your age(not that long ago), I thought like you. I figured the world revolved around me. Hey, if I wanted to drink, it was my business right? Not the governments. Yeah, that's the way I thought. Fortunately, nobody ever bought me a beer. I'm more mature now, and realize that drinking back then would have been my downfall. With the attitude you're displaying, I can tell you right now that you ain't ready to be drinking. Your age has nothing to do with the issue at hand. It's your lack of maturity in your posts. Get over your martyr complex. Drinking isn't a game, it's not something that the government has arbitrarily decided that you can't do. The government carefully did studies and said "Hey, you know what? It would be a really good idea if young people didn't drink because these studies show that it wouldn't be good for them." You don't see it that way because hey, the world is out to spoil your fun. Sheesh. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
INRIWarrior3 Posted July 30, 2003 Share Posted July 30, 2003 I skipped from the second page to the last because all the stupid bickering that i started to read made my head spin. Any way here goes: Yes, drinking under age is immoral. You are disobeying the law of what ever state you live in. Mt 22 15-21: "Then the Pharisees went off and plotted how they might entrap him in speech...'Teacher, we know you are a truthful man and that you teach the way of God in accordance with the truth. And you are not concerned with anyone's opinion, for you do not regard a person's status. Tell us, then, what is you opinion: Is it lawful to pay the census tax to Caesar or not?" Knowing their malice, Jesus said, "Why are you testing me, you hypocrites? Show me the coin that pays the census tax." Then they handed him the Roman coin. He said to them, "Whose name is this and whose inscription?" They replied, "Caesar's." At that he said to them, "Then repay to Caesar what belongs to Caesar and to God what belongs to God." You are to obey the laws of the state (don't make any ridiculous claims here like if its the law to commit adultery or something). This is in response to Hyperdulia saying that it is not morally wrong to disobey the drinking age laws. Read Catechism 1897-1904 with special emphasis on 1899. That will take care of the Church's position on honoring social authorities i.e. in this case our goverment. Therefore one should conclude that it is immoral to drink alcohol before the legal drinking age in your state or country. Strength, Truth, and Wisdom in Christ always Chadd Christopher "Warrior" "Christ-bearer" INRIWarrior3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azriel Posted July 30, 2003 Share Posted July 30, 2003 I can't believe I read this whole thread. Someone answer me a simple question. If the Catechism says we are to obey our governing bodies laws, doesn't it follow that we need to follow this one? I'm not arguing for or against, but it seems like a simple point. Now I don't know whether I need a drink, or am happy that I can't away. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jasJis Posted July 30, 2003 Share Posted July 30, 2003 by the way.... After my prom a girl had a party at her house...her parents were home but we were all drinking, and drinking responsibly...the cops happened to be driving by and stopped in...took a look around....saw everything was in order....and left...without issuing tickets or arresting anyone So. Does that make it legal or moral, or does it mean the cop chose not to enforce the law in that instance? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jasJis Posted July 30, 2003 Share Posted July 30, 2003 Well, I've heard differently and still don't intend to not drink. Fine. Obey the rules you want to. Suffer the consequences of your own actions. Please don't undermine social order or spread ignorance that may cause other's to err. It's been shown to you that Church teaching is to obey the law unless moral evil results from obedience. It's been shown it's a law, and legitimate reasons for the law have been provided. You are welcome to disagree with the law or it's legitimacy, but you are not free to encourage others to break the law and undermine respect for social order so you can do what you want. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
logos Posted July 30, 2003 Share Posted July 30, 2003 Wow...in the time it took me to read this thread from page 6, two more pages were started. IronMonk and JasJis quoted from the Catechism. Ironmonk quoted the preface to the Catechism which established the validity and truth of the teachings in it. Will someone please give another interpretation of those cited catechism verses. Also will someone give an explanation of the passage "Give to Cesaer what is Cesaer's" that supports breaking the law in instances where no-one is hurt? Peace all- Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts