The Hagia Sophia

[Resurrexi]

[quote] Religious freedom is, of course, an inalienable right. [/quote]

The only religion that is lawful to practice publicly is Catholicism, all other religions are false and therefore may only be practiced privatey.

[quote] Religious freedom is, of course, an inalienable right. [/quote]

The only religion that is lawful to practice publicly is Catholicism, all other religions are false and therefore may only be practiced privatey.

[kenrockthefirst]

[quote name='beatty07' post='1138879' date='Dec 9 2006, 05:23 PM']
Just walking around and praying in the Hagia Sophia is a strange two-edged experience... there's such awe at the structure and its history, but such sadness at the way that history has ended up. The govt has done a pretty good job of recovering some Christian artwork. Fortunately, the muslims had to convert the whole thing in about two weeks because the sultan said "I want to pray in here." So they didn't have time to destroy most of the mosaics and just plastered over them. On the other hand, there are 7 humongous disks hung around with verses from the koran, the windows are still muslim-style, and the muslim furnishings are still in place near where the altar should be. I saw an Orthodox Bishop visiting inside, and it was just heartbreaking.
[/quote]

It is heartbreaking, and what it comes down to in terms of Turkey's bona fides as a Western nation aspirant is, do the right thing and return the Hagia Sophia.


[quote name='StThomasMore' post='1139114' date='Dec 10 2006, 02:04 AM']
The only religion that is lawful to practice publicly is Catholicism, all other religions are false and therefore may only be practiced privatey.
[/quote]

Unless we're going to do an American Taliban, folks in this country have the freedom to practice whatever religion they like. As a Catholic, of course, I believe that those religions are deficient vis-a-vis truth and salvation BUT unless I'm going to force someone to practice (if not believe), we have to allow them the freedom to worship as they choose. Of course, force and denial of freedom of conscience and religion is my main gripe with majority Muslim countries, and the point of this post in the first place.

[jswranch]

[quote name='StThomasMore' post='1135162' date='Dec 4 2006, 07:51 PM']
NO! It must not be returned to the schismatics! It must be returned to the Holy Catholic Church!
[/quote]
Someone correct me if I am wrong, but I am under the impression that Orthodox Catholic relations are such that today, we are a document and a handshake away from the Patriarch of Contstaninople coming into full comunion with BXVI.

Heck, I am praying such happens when the Patriarch visits the pope in Rome.

(A number of Orthodox would not be so happy with the situation and an Ecumenical council would have to be called.)

[beatty07]

[quote name='jswranch' post='1139929' date='Dec 11 2006, 05:27 PM']
Someone correct me if I am wrong, but I am under the impression that Orthodox Catholic relations are such that today, we are a document and a handshake away from the Patriarch of Contstaninople coming into full comunion with BXVI.

Heck, I am praying such happens when the Patriarch visits the pope in Rome.

(A number of Orthodox would not be so happy with the situation and an Ecumenical council would have to be called.)
[/quote]

well, that would have to be a pretty impressive document. It would have to address the filioque in the Creed, include a drastic development in the conception of Papal Primacy by one or both sides, address the ecclesiological issues of autocephalous Churches, completely revamp the selection of Bishops by one or both sides, address varying moral disciplines like divorce and remarriage, find a way to substantially merge the Orthodox rites with the corresponding Eastern Catholic rites, and that's just some of the biggies. The devil's in the details, as they say.

I'm very hopeful and we should definitely pray for this... but there's a heck of a lot standing in the way right now. Historically speaking, we're only just starting to talk to each other again.

To complicate it a little more, not all that many Orthodox would be super-impressed by unity between Rome and Constantinople. I imagine almost all the Russian and Greek Orthodox would be unaffected, for instance. The Ecumenical Patriarch of Constantinople actually doesn't carry much weight with them, when you get down to it. He certainly isn't an Orthodox version of the Pope.

[catholicinsd]

[quote name='StThomasMore' post='1139114' date='Dec 10 2006, 01:04 AM']
.
The only religion that is lawful to practice publicly is Catholicism, all other religions are false and therefore may only be practiced privatey.
[/quote]

A Muslim would say the same thing, about Islam.

[Balthazor]

I do not think we are going to get the Church back guys. I think it is a nice thought but though it is sad we have a living church that is much more important than a de-sanctified building. Besides what culture has not stole or pillaged from another? We are just as guilty.
Some times it is better to just leave the past in the past.

I do not hear anyone here advocating giving America back to the Native Americans, and many of them had to give up their sacred places when the whites arrived.

And if you go to Rome you will see that the churches are sometimes built out of the ruins of ancient temples.

The more important thing is to retain what we have and keep our faith alive and spreading. If we do this then maybe one day Turkey will become a Christian Country and we will have the Hagia Sophia back.

Turkey really does need to let Christians have more freedoms though, it is not right that in so many Muslim countries they restrict Christians right to practice a peaceful religion. If we did this in any other country against the muslims we would be bombed.

[catholicinsd]

When the British occupied the Islamic world, they allowed freedom of religion to the Muslims. Why won't Muslim do they same now?

[homeschoolmom]

[quote name='catholicinsd' post='1141481' date='Dec 13 2006, 04:17 PM']
When the British occupied the Islamic world, they allowed freedom of religion to the Muslims. Why won't Muslim do they same now?
[/quote]
Because the West believes in such freedoms and the Islamic world (for the most part) does not.

[kenrockthefirst]

[quote name='homeschoolmom' post='1141510' date='Dec 13 2006, 05:54 PM']
Because the West believes in such freedoms and the Islamic world (for the most part) does not.
[/quote]

Hence "what's good for the goose is good for the gander." If Turkey wants admission to the EU, to "Europe," to the "West," then it needs to conform with certain norms, i.e. freedom of conscience, freedom of religion. Ironically, Western tolerance for freedom of conscience and religion, women's rights, etc., is informed by its Christian heritage. Clearly, there is no such tradition / impetus in the Muslim world.

[homeschoolmom]

I agree.

[toledo_jesus]

[quote name='scardella' post='1134663' date='Dec 4 2006, 01:00 PM']
Just to be devil's advocate, then shouldn't the various churches made out of pagan temples be returned to pagans?
[/quote]
nah, they ain't around no more. We just got wimpy neo-pagans.