Prove To Me When God Gives A Child A Soul

[zeyeon]

[quote name='BurkeFan' post='1132757' date='Dec 1 2006, 03:02 AM']
You should read Nicanor Austriaco's article "Immediate Hominization from the Systems Perspective," published in the Winter 2004 National Catholic Bioethics Quarterly. Fr. Austriaco has a background in genetics (PhD from MIT) and a solid grounding in metaphysics from the Dominican House of Studies. He lays out a convincing case, if it is read with an open mind. Unfortunately, it's not available free online.
However, a roundtable discussion he was in is available for viewing [url="http://video.google.com/googleplayer.swf?docId=-1678758711453804877&hl=en"]HERE[/url]. It opens with Fr. Austriaco speaking, and he gives a decent general introduction, but it is not nearly as technical or precise as his article.
I would also recommend Peter Kreeft's "[url="http://www.peterkreeft.com/topics-more/personhood.htm"]Human Personhood Begins at Conception[/url]." Though not a strictly scientific article, it makes a strong case against, say, Judith Jarvis Thompson, who you referenced earlier.
[/quote]

Yea I didn't even cite her. I remember reading her work and tried to give the analogy as best as I could. I'll peep out the links though.

Actually now that I read it I did an amazing job lol... Totally botched the analogy though it was supposed to be a violinist.

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='zeyeon' post='1132734' date='Dec 1 2006, 02:18 AM']
She was violently raped at knife point and the sick bastarted even carved his initials into her breast and left her face disfigured.

I personally don't blame here at all for doing what she did. She is someone I care about and to see the pain that she was in was UNBEARABLE. she had to get rid of the embryo. Maybe you would've handled it differently if you were raped, but you still have no right to force her to handle it your way... aggree with it or not.

That's just an example of why percentages are meaningless to me. Rape may not account for the majority of abortions... but man... that situation was beyond brutal. there is no way ANYBODY can convince me to be pro-life after seeing somebody go through that.
[/quote]


Ya know I don't like using people close to me in debates but guess what pal your not the only one who has known someone close that was raped, (violently and repeatedly) but unlike you we (her, her friends family, and I) did not and do not see her innocent and cute little child even when she was a "embryo" as a piece of trash, that had to be getting rid of, or some wicked alien on some movie.

I am deeply sorry for your friend and will pray for her, however your friend had no right to force death on a innocent child. Being sinned against gives us NO right to sin against someone else you are refusing to open your eyes to truth.

[zeyeon]

[quote name='KnightofChrist' post='1132761' date='Dec 1 2006, 03:16 AM']
Ya know I don't like using people close to me in debates but guess what pal your not the only one who has known someone close that was raped, (violently and repeatedly) but unlike you we (her, her friends family, and I) did not and do not see her innocent and cute little child even when she was a "embryo" as a piece of trash, that had to be getting rid of, or some wicked alien on some movie.

I am deeply sorry for your friend and will pray for her, however your friend had no right to force death on a innocent child. Being sinned against gives us NO right to sin against someone else you are refusing to open your eyes to truth.
[/quote]

She didn't view it as a piece of trash. She viewed it as an evil seed growing inside of her. I guess the only way I could explain it to you in terms that you can undersrtand.... she felt like the spawn of satan was inside of her. Please don't judge my friend... i'm sorry for your friend and I'm sick and tired of people getting offended at differing opinions. Nobody is refusing to open thier eyes to the truth... The problem is, is that my truth doesn't match your truth. What makes your truth better than my truth? I respect what you're girl did.... I really do. But I understand what my friend did as well. How dare you lash out at my friend and tell me that I "don't know the truth" simply because I have compassion for somebody that went through an extremely difficult situation. If your compassion is limited to your logic then I feel sorry for you.

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='zeyeon' post='1132753' date='Dec 1 2006, 03:00 AM']
There's too many grey areas for me to even say I'm pro-life at all man. I have to put faith in the person that they are going to make the right decision. If it's for life... GREAT... if not... then I have faith they made the best decision for them. I'm not God and i don't know every woman's situation.. therefore I can't act like I know what's best for them.... So I have faith in thier choice...

I used to be hard core pro-life... even in cases of rape. But when you see someone go through it... you realize how much of an idiot you are for even trying to have an opinion on it, because you DO NOT UNDERSTAND unless you whitness the whole process.

Seeing pictures of how an abortion is performed... without getting the full picture of the mother and her life and what she went through and what her position is.... is propaganda at best. I'm not disputing the fact that abortions are disgusting... but some of the situations people are placed in are just as bad, and more often worse.
[/quote]


You should have faith in God, Jesus Christ, not in (wo)man.

[zeyeon]

[quote name='KnightofChrist' post='1132765' date='Dec 1 2006, 03:27 AM']
You should have faith in God, Jesus Christ, not in (wo)man.
[/quote]

I do... which is exacltey why I rely on God and Jesus Christ to touch thier souls....




Not anti-abortion laws.

[BurkeFan]

[quote name='zeyeon' post='1132764' date='Dec 1 2006, 03:24 AM']
She didn't view it as a piece of trash. She viewed it as an evil seed growing inside of her. I guess the only way I could explain it to you in terms that you can undersrtand.... she felt like the spawn of satan was inside of her. Please don't judge my friend... i'm sorry for your friend and I'm sick and tired of people getting offended at differing opinions. Nobody is refusing to open thier eyes to the truth... The problem is, is that my truth doesn't match your truth. What makes your truth better than my truth? I respect what you're girl did.... I really do. But I understand what my friend did as well. How dare you lash out at my friend and tell me that I "don't know the truth" simply because I have compassion for somebody that went through an extremely difficult situation. If your compassion is limited to your logic then I feel sorry for you.
[/quote]

First, I don't think that anyone here is blaming your friend, as there were serious mitigating circumstances which limited her culpability for the choice she made. However, no one here will say that your friend did the "right" thing. Her perception of the unborn child did not somehow transform it into something other than a child.
Women who have had an abortion after being raped, in my experience, are doubly traumatized. First, there is the assault of the rape, and then there is the assault of the abortion, usually performed by a man. Even if she freely chooses to have the abortion, rather than being dragged into a clinic (which I have seen), there is still a deep sense of violation and a repetition of the trauma of the rape. Some of these women, many years after the rape and abortion, have said that they have been able to move past the rape, but not the abortion.
It is a decision which, no matter how free she was in choosing the abortion, or how coerced she was in choosing it, almost always haunts a woman for the rest of her life.
That's why I can't accept abortion in the case of rape, not just for the sake of the child, but for the sake of the woman who was raped. It's ultimately a false compassion.

Also, on the "truth" part, how much philosophy and/or formal logic have you had?

Another great series of articles that touch on the personhood question are available via [url="http://www.communio-icr.com/ant.htm"]Communio [/url], which ran a series of articles on ANT and OAR in 2004-05.
Adrian Walker's "[url="http://communio-icr.com/articles/PDF/walker31-4.pdf"]Altered Nuclear Transfer: A Philosophical Critique"[/url] is a favorite of mine, but both his and Fr. Austriaco's articles are well worth reading.

Edited December 1, 2006 by BurkeFan

[zeyeon]

[quote name='BurkeFan' post='1132768' date='Dec 1 2006, 03:35 AM']
First, I don't think that anyone here is blaming your friend, as there were serious mitigating circumstances which limited her culpability for the choice she made. However, no one here will say that your friend did the "right" thing. Her perception of the unborn child did not somehow transform it into something other than a child.
Women who have had an abortion after being raped, in my experience, are doubly traumatized. First, there is the assault of the rape, and then there is the assault of the abortion, usually performed by a man. Even if she freely chooses to have the abortion, rather than being dragged into a clinic (which I have seen), there is still a deep sense of violation and a repetition of the trauma of the rape. Some of these women, many years after the rape and abortion, have said that they have been able to move past the rape, but not the abortion.
It is a decision which, no matter how free she was in choosing the abortion, or how coerced she was in choosing it, almost always haunts a woman for the rest of her life.
That's why I can't accept abortion in the case of rape, not just for the sake of the child, but for the sake of the woman who was raped.

Also, on the "truth" part, how much philosophy and/or formal logic have you had?
[/quote]

Again I wouldn't say she made the "right" decision either... however I do support what she did given the circumstances. Nobody is saying that Abortion is a solution to rape. It's an option. Most rape victims that get pregnant will describe abortion as a step to recoverty. It really does depend on the person... and for that reason I believe abortion should not be outlawed. You have to understand that having a child out of rape is NOT the best decision for every woman. In fact it's probably the worst decision for most women. Maybe later on down the road she will regret the abortion.... But then again maybe having the abortion prevented her from commiting suicide. You just can't use speculation in defence of the pro-life philosophy.

And i'm not sure I know what you mean about the "truth" part. are you trying to ask me what classes I've taken or something? Because I've had none. I speak my heart and believe in what I say... that alone will allow me to take on a walking Niche

Edited December 1, 2006 by zeyeon

[BurkeFan]

[quote name='zeyeon' post='1132776' date='Dec 1 2006, 03:46 AM']
Again I wouldn't say she made the "right" decision either... however I do support what she did given the circumstances. Nobody is saying that Abortion is a solution to rape. It's an option. Most rape victims that get pregnant will describe abortion as a step to recoverty. It really does depend on the person... and for that reason I believe abortion should not be outlawed. You have to understand that having a child out of rape is NOT the best decision for every woman. In fact it's probably the worst decision for most women. Maybe later on down the road she will regret the abortion.... But then again maybe having the abortion prevented her from commiting suicide. You just can't use speculation in defence of the pro-life philosophy.

And i'm not sure I know what you mean about the "truth" part. are you trying to ask me what classes I've taken or something?
[/quote]

Some rape victims, who are about to get an abortion may describe it as a step to recovery, but I doubt that many of them will say the same thing in a decade. The cure, in this case, is so much worse in the disease that I could not possibly wish it upon any woman, especially those dear to me. On the suicide part, as far as I know, more women commit suicide because they've had an abortion than because they've been raped.

Your equivocations about "my" and "your" truth were very odd. I suppose I was asking if you had taken any classes at all. It's not something that you have to answer, or that I asked to assault you in any way, but I was trying to get a better sense of where you were coming from in this discussion.

If you do have questions about the whole fallacy of "my truth" / "your truth" in ethical debates, I would highly recommend Alasdair MacIntyre's [i]After Virtue[/i].

[quote]Because I've had none. I speak my heart and believe in what I say... that alone will allow me to take on a walking Niche[/quote]

Okay, thanks for sharing. Some of the articles I referred to you are rather technical and presuppose a substantial background, so if there's anything I can clarify, please let me know.

Edited December 1, 2006 by BurkeFan

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='zeyeon' post='1132764' date='Dec 1 2006, 03:24 AM']
She didn't view it as a piece of trash. She viewed it as an evil seed growing inside of her. I guess the only way I could explain it to you in terms that you can undersrtand....
she felt like the spawn of satan was inside of her.[/quote]

A unborn child is quite the opposite.

[quote name='zeyeon' post='1132764' date='Dec 1 2006, 03:24 AM']
Please don't judge my friend... [/quote]

I apologize, I will not be forced into a corner, you chose to bring your friend into this debate, I have every right to state the truth that what she did was wrong. I am sorry she did it and I am sorry I had to state the truth that what she did was wrong, but I will not be force to deny or not state the truth.

[quote name='zeyeon' post='1132764' date='Dec 1 2006, 03:24 AM']
i'm sorry for your friend and I'm sick and tired of people getting offended at differing opinions. Nobody is refusing to open thier eyes to the truth... The problem is, is that my truth doesn't match your truth. What makes your truth better than my truth?[/quote]

Truth is not relative. The truth is abortion, the killing of a unborn child on purpose is always wrong and a great sin. That is not my truth or my opinion that is fact and truth.

[quote name='zeyeon' post='1132764' date='Dec 1 2006, 03:24 AM']
I respect what you're girl did.... I really do. But I understand what my friend did as well. How dare you lash out at my friend and tell me that I "don't know the truth" simply because I have compassion for somebody that went through an extremely difficult situation. If your compassion is limited to your logic then I feel sorry for you.
[/quote]


I "understand" why women who have been raped get abortions, however that gives them no right to take the lives of their innocent babies lives. And I have compassion for woman who have been raped, yet that does not supersede my God given reason of right and wrong. I have compassion for the child that had to die, and I have deep compassion for the mothers that kill their babies, praying that one day they will ask Christ for His mercy and forgiveness.

[zeyeon]

I shouldn't have brought my friend into this.. you're absolutley right. So I'm done with this thread out of respect for her.

thanks for the linked articles and to those who responded decently.

[cathoholic_anonymous]

I'm not adding this reply to debate with zeyeon, as it is difficult to talk reasonably about emotive topics when the people close to you have been touched by them. I just want to share an insight into the pro-life philosophy that I've received over the past year.

I have a close friend who suffers from a variety of serious mental health problems. She has chronic anorexia and severe self-harming habits. Once she cut so deep into her flesh that she severed a nerve. She can't receive surgery to hide all the disfiguring scars until she and the hospital staff are sure that she won't cut again. At the time of writing, she has been in the hospital for one year and one month. She has got no prospect of getting out any time soon.

She is fifteen years old. She was fourteen when she went into the hospital. Sexual abuse is the reason why she does this to herself. A close, trustred friend of her family began to rape her when she was only seven years old. The abuse continued until she was fourteen. Sexual assault has been a reality for her for nearly half her life. When she was little, her attacker would tell her that she was a bad, dirty child and that it was no use running to her parents about this - they didn't love her anyway. Last year, when she felt as if she couldn't take any more, she lied to her rapist and said she was pregnant. (In reality the anorexia had taken such a strong hold of her by then that she wasn't getting periods any more.) That frightened him off, but she couldn't get the memories out of her head. A few months later she took her first overdose. Her family only found out what was wrong after the suicide attempt.

This made me wonder. Imagine, what would things have been like if the pregnancy story [i]hadn't[/i] been a lie? What if she really had been carrying the child of her abuser? A mentally ill, emaciated fourteen-year-old, expecting a child.

I didn't want to think about it, but I forced myself to. And I came to the conclusion that Catholic teaching is absolutely right where abortion is concerned, although my reasoning is slightly different to that given by the others who have responded to this thread.

Abortion can't undo rape. It can't erase the past. It just tries (unsuccessfully) to sweep the past under the rug. In reality, it erases a future instead. Children who were conceived by rape are just that - children. They've done nothing to deserve death. So often abortion is presented as a means to recovery from rape, as if by removing the living reminder (the child) from the scene you can remove the abuse from your memory. It doesn't work that way. The memory has to be faced and vanquished. And to me, giving birth to a unique human being in spite of what has happened to you is a way of walking towards that. It shows your capacity to love is unhurt. (Many rape victims, including my friend, struggle to love after their experiences. My friend is extremely distrustful, for example.)

That said, I understand why women in such a horrible position would be tempted by abortion. I can say that their action is wrong, but I can't say that they are. If anything, society (including Catholics - especially Catholics) must bear a large portion of the blame for failing to be more supportive of such women. Charities like Life do a great job in providing free childcare, counselling, etc., but a great deal more is needed.

Edited December 1, 2006 by Cathoholic Anonymous

[uruviel]

[quote]I mean how would you fill the temple with people when the temple doesn't even have walls yet?[/quote]

Are you questioning God's ability to put a soul in a body that is not yet developed?

[Winchester]

Can we go on and lock this since zeye is abandoning it?

[uruviel]

oh, sure.

[BurkeFan]

[quote name='uruviel' post='1132920' date='Dec 1 2006, 01:02 PM']
Are you questioning God's ability to put a soul in a body that is not yet developed?
[/quote]

Before the thread is locked, I just wanted to add that strictly speaking, the soul is the from of the body. It is what organizes the structures and substructures, and activates everything. Our bodies are not "shells" for our souls in any way, shape or form. There is an absolute indissoluble unity. We are not "our souls". We are our bodies, though not *just* our bodies.