Prove To Me When God Gives A Child A Soul

[zeyeon]

I'm at work right now... I can only reply when somethings not broken lol

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='Kosh' post='1132701' date='Dec 1 2006, 01:28 AM']
no, he's still on..oh well. Well, Abortion is objectively wrong and God gives us a soul at the moment of conception and no, we can't prove it. Its a matter of faith. That 'bout sums it up, I think.
[/quote]


According to Jimmy Akin we can...

[quote]Though the soul itself cannot be empirically observed, its presence can be detected (just as an electron itself cannot be directly observed, but the presence of an electron can be detected through various scientific means). The test is simple: If you have a living human body, it is made alive by a human soul. This reduces the issue to the question of biological humanness.[/quote]

[quote name='zeyeon' post='1132709' date='Dec 1 2006, 01:34 AM']
I'm at work right now... I can only reply when somethings not broken lol
[/quote]

Wow your aloud to use the internet for "private use"... I'd be out of a job if I were to do that...

[Kosh]

oh. Good point. well SCIENTIFICALLY we can't really even prove the existance of a soul.

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='Kosh' post='1132713' date='Dec 1 2006, 01:42 AM']
oh. Good point. well SCIENTIFICALLY we can't really even prove the existance of a soul.
[/quote]


Well say I bury a rock in a garden, a very very big garden, I know the rock exist, but if no one else could dig it up and prove it exist, then "scientifically" it would not...

Edited December 1, 2006 by KnightofChrist

[angelusdomini]

[quote name='zeyeon' post='1132610' date='Dec 1 2006, 12:37 AM']
This is where I veer off. I in no way believe the mother should have to carry that burden. Being raped is torturous enough to be reminded of it every time she sees the full grown sperm of the assailant.
I'm not I'm just seeing where yall stand.
[/quote]



I see that rape is a horrendous experience, my only querry here would be, how does turning an already violated and distressed woman into a murderer (or at the very least) accomplice to one take awya her current problems. Same goes for the single, mentally/emotionally unprepared mother to be. The frightened teenage mother-to-be. How does getting the abortion get rid of that fear? or ineptitude? (Insert any appropriate adjective for this last question?)

[zeyeon]

[quote name='Angelus_Domini' post='1132721' date='Dec 1 2006, 01:50 AM']
I see that rape is a horrendous experience, my only querry here would be, how does turning an already violated and distressed woman into a murderer (or at the very least) accomplice to one take awya her current problems. Same goes for the single, mentally/emotionally unprepared mother to be. The frightened teenage mother-to-be. How does getting the abortion get rid of that fear? or ineptitude? (Insert any appropriate adjective for this last question?)
[/quote]

The best way I've heard it described... was from a very close friend of mine who was raped and became pregnat.

Every seen the movie "Aliens?" In it they have these aliens called face huggers that forcefully impregnate you with a life form. Being pregnant with the seed of the person that raped you, is like living through that movie, and all you want to do is get it out of you.

[Farsight one]

[quote name='zeyeon' post='1132723' date='Dec 1 2006, 12:58 AM']
Every seen the movie "Aliens?" In it they have these aliens called face huggers that forcefully impregnate you with a life form. Being pregnant with the seed of the person that raped you, is like living through that movie, and all you want to do is get it out of you.
[/quote]

[quote name='Farsight one' post='1132621' date='Nov 30 2006, 11:43 PM']
There are a few who are tormented by such things, but adoption can be used in that case. The vast majority, however, look at their child and see it as a reminder of the trials that they have overcome - a source of immense joy, not pain.
[/quote]

[zeyeon]

^^ Tell that to my friend.

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='zeyeon' post='1132723' date='Dec 1 2006, 01:58 AM']
The best way I've heard it described... was from a very close friend of mine who was raped and became pregnat.

Every seen the movie "Aliens?" In it they have these aliens called face huggers that forcefully impregnate you with a life form. Being pregnant with the seed of the person that raped you, is like living through that movie, and all you want to do is get it out of you.
[/quote]

So she had an abortion? She has never regret it once and never ever will? Has she rationally thought of a child her child as good, cute, innocent, instead of something she saw a on a sick twisted movie?

[zeyeon]

[quote name='KnightofChrist' post='1132729' date='Dec 1 2006, 02:10 AM']
So she had an abortion? She has never regret it once and never ever will? Has she rationally thought of a child her child as good, cute, innocent, instead of something she saw a on a sick twisted movie?
[/quote]

She was violently raped at knife point and the sick bastarted even carved his initials into her breast and left her face disfigured.

I personally don't blame here at all for doing what she did. She is someone I care about and to see the pain that she was in was UNBEARABLE. she had to get rid of the embryo. Maybe you would've handled it differently if you were raped, but you still have no right to force her to handle it your way... aggree with it or not.

That's just an example of why percentages are meaningless to me. Rape may not account for the majority of abortions... but man... that situation was beyond brutal. there is no way ANYBODY can convince me to be pro-life after seeing somebody go through that.

Edited December 1, 2006 by zeyeon

[angelusdomini]

[quote name='Farsight one' post='1132621' date='Dec 1 2006, 12:43 AM']
Yes, provided her chance of survival changes significantly enough. Something like from no chance to a 75%.
[/quote]

Actually ( and I amy stand to be corrected) but I believe from my reading thus far, that abortion is never an acceptable opion. It is OBJECTIVELY wrong. The Christian is not permitted to choose evil in order to achieve a good end.

[i]Direct abortion, that is to say, an abortion willed either as an ends or a means is gravely contrary to the moral law...[/i] (Catechism of the Catholic Church [CCC] 2271)

I also think it may be useful to keep in mind another point that may help in this discussion. One must make the distinction of th objective nature of th action and the subjective responsibility for the persons involved. Abortion, objectively speaking is wrong always and everywhere. This due to the nature of the action itself. In Christian terms, it directly violates the fifth commandment: Thou shalt not kill. This must be distinguished from the guilt that the persons themselves incurr for such an action. The three conditions that mitigate the personal sin of an individual would be the general terms for any mortal (grave/ serious) sin:

1) The matter is grave ( as abortion clearly is)
2) The person must be conscious of this reality (#1)
3) The person must willingly consent to this action.
(cf CCC

I think a lot of abortion proponents get all guarded when this subject is broached because they always say that the religious right is always speaking in judgement of them when in truth one can only definitively speak of the moral value of and action. In this case abortion is OBJECTIVELY EVIL. This cannot be done inall fairness however to the state of a person's soul who has committed such an act because simply, none of us know what's going on inside the sul. Only God knows that ( and the person, although one could rightly say I suppose that God knows that soul than even the person himself). I must mention as well, that here I refer to the woman, the "physician" and anyone else who would be involved in this procedure (i.e. nurse etc.). We can however speak on what we know and that is this: We know God's law- His commandments and it is available to anyone wo wants to know it. Therefore, if the three conditions stated above are present a person would be morally responsible for committing an objectively evil action.
One last quote to think about,

The inalienable right to life of every innocent human individual is a constitutive element of a civil society and its legislation:

[b]"The inalienable rights of the person must be recognized and respected by civil society and the political authority. These human rights depend neither on single individuals nor on parents; nor do they represent a concession made by society and the state; they belong to human nature and are inherent in the person by virtue of the creative act from which the person took his origin. Among such fundamental rights one should mention in this regard every human being's right to life and physical integrity from the moment of conception until death."80

"The moment a positive law deprives a category of human beings of the protection which civil legislation ought to accord them, the state is denying the equality of all before the law. When the state does not place its power at the service of the rights of each citizen, and in particular of the more vulnerable, the very foundations of a state based on law are undermined. . . . As a consequence of the respect and protection which must be ensured for the unborn child from the moment of conception, the law must provide appropriate penal sanctions for every deliberate violation of the child's rights."81 [/b] (CCC 2273)

80 CDF, Donum vitae III.
81 CDF, Donum vitae III.

[url="http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/p3s2c2a5.htm"]CCC- The Fifth Commandment- Thou Shalt Not Kill[/url]

[zeyeon]

That's just an example of why percentages are meaningless to me. Rape may not account for the majority of abortions... but man... that situation was beyond brutal. there is no way ANYBODY can convince me to be pro-life after seeing somebody go through that.

It's all good to talk philosophy like you have a grip on things.... but talk to me when someone you care about went through it. I'm sorry but reality overtook my philosophy.

Edited December 1, 2006 by zeyeon

[Farsight one]

[quote name='zeyeon' post='1132734' date='Dec 1 2006, 01:18 AM']
She was violently raped at knife point and the sick bastarted even carved his initials into her breast and left her face disfigured.

I personally don't blame here at all for doing what she did. She is someone I care about and to see the pain that she was in was UNBEARABLE. she had to get rid of the embryo. Maybe you would've handled it differently if you were raped, but you still have no right to force her to handle it your way... aggree with it or not.

That's just an example of why percentages are meaningless to me. Rape may not account for the majority of abortions... but man... that situation was beyond brutal. there is no way ANYBODY can convince me to be pro-life after seeing somebody go through that.
[/quote]See someone go through that? Once again, go check up on how abortions are performed. I puked. Yeah, what happened to your friend was brutal, but it pales in comparison. And still, A life is still more important than suffering, no matter how much it is(perhaps this is where we differ in opinion).


[quote name='Angelus_Domini' post='1132738' date='Dec 1 2006, 01:27 AM']
Actually ( and I amy stand to be corrected) but I believe from my reading thus far, that abortion is never an acceptable opion. It is OBJECTIVELY wrong. The Christian is not permitted to choose evil in order to achieve a good end.
[/quote]I understand that. I speak of such a situation as when a placenta must be removed due to cancer or the like. It is, technically abortion, but it is not the direct killing of the child.


[quote name='zeyeon' post='1132739' date='Dec 1 2006, 01:29 AM']
That's just an example of why percentages are meaningless to me. Rape may not account for the majority of abortions... but man... that situation was beyond brutal. there is no way ANYBODY can convince me to be pro-life after seeing somebody go through that.[/quote]Then at least call yourself pro-life except in the case of rape. You said so yourself that there's definitely gray areas.

[zeyeon]

[quote name='Farsight one' post='1132749' date='Dec 1 2006, 02:54 AM']
See someone go through that? Once again, go check up on how abortions are performed. I puked. Yeah, what happened to your friend was brutal, but it pales in comparison. And still, A life is still more important than suffering, no matter how much it is(perhaps this is where we differ in opinion).
I understand that. I speak of such a situation as when a placenta must be removed due to cancer or the like. It is, technically abortion, but it is not the direct killing of the child.
Then at least call yourself pro-life except in the case of rape. You said so yourself that there's definitely gray areas.
[/quote]

There's too many grey areas for me to even say I'm pro-life at all man. I have to put faith in the person that they are going to make the right decision. If it's for life... GREAT... if not... then I have faith they made the best decision for them. I'm not God and i don't know every woman's situation.. therefore I can't act like I know what's best for them.... So I have faith in thier choice...

I used to be hard core pro-life... even in cases of rape. But when you see someone go through it... you realize how much of an idiot you are for even trying to have an opinion on it, because you DO NOT UNDERSTAND unless you whitness the whole process.

Seeing pictures of how an abortion is performed... without getting the full picture of the mother and her life and what she went through and what her position is.... is propaganda at best. I'm not disputing the fact that abortions are disgusting... but some of the situations people are placed in are just as bad, and more often worse.

Edited December 1, 2006 by zeyeon

[BurkeFan]

You should read Nicanor Austriaco's article "Immediate Hominization from the Systems Perspective," published in the Winter 2004 National Catholic Bioethics Quarterly. Fr. Austriaco has a background in genetics (PhD from MIT) and a solid grounding in metaphysics from the Dominican House of Studies. He lays out a convincing case, if it is read with an open mind. Unfortunately, it's not available free online.
However, a roundtable discussion he was in is available for viewing [url="http://video.google.com/googleplayer.swf?docId=-1678758711453804877&hl=en"]HERE[/url]. It opens with Fr. Austriaco speaking, and he gives a decent general introduction, but it is not nearly as technical or precise as his article.
I would also recommend Peter Kreeft's "[url="http://www.peterkreeft.com/topics-more/personhood.htm"]Human Personhood Begins at Conception[/url]." Though not a strictly scientific article, it makes a strong case against, say, Judith Jarvis Thompson, who you referenced earlier.

Edited December 1, 2006 by BurkeFan