Prove To Me When God Gives A Child A Soul

[zeyeon]

If you can give concrete proof as to when God gives a child a soul... then you are allowed to use saving one of God's lives as an excuse for being pro life.

I am not being cynical. I know there is a verse in the book of daniel that describes it. You can even use scripture, in fact I want you too.

[Winchester]

How can one have concrete proof of something that is immaterial?

The wrongness of abortion is not based upon the time of ensoulment and never has been.

[zeyeon]

[quote name='Winchester' post='1132479' date='Nov 30 2006, 10:04 PM']
How can one have concrete proof of something that is immaterial?

The wrongness of abortion is not based upon the time of ensoulment and never has been.
[/quote]

Then what's it based upon?

[Farsight one]

It should be based upon the fact that at one cell, the "fetus" is alive and human, and therefore a person. As well, that, in America at least, all PERSONS are created equal and all have the right to LIFE, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.

[Winchester]

I recall it being natural law, but will require help as I've never bothered with the argument because it is unreasonable to deny that after conception, there is not a human life. Further, the source I am recalling is not within my memory or my reach. I'm at my side job. I used it a few years ago when writing a paper for my wife explaining why I could not vote for a member of the Democratic party, but could vote for a member of the Republican party. I find both parties reprehensible, but the platform of denying life to those who are completely helpless trumps other concerns of social justice, as it denies the most basic human right, from which all rights flow. Before it, the Republican stances against labor and fair business practices (I speak of the practical positions rather than the rhetoric surrounding them) pale in comparison. We can resist; the unborn are notoriously bad at self-defense.

I have before argued the mistake in the pro-abortion rights camp is in trying to deny the humanity of the unborn. They should rather go after denying the legal rights of the unborn and acknowledge that some human lives are not to be protected by the law.

The notion that an unborn child at any stage is not human is philosophically and medically indefensible.

[zeyeon]

[quote name='Farsight one' post='1132486' date='Nov 30 2006, 10:17 PM']
It should be based upon the fact that at one cell, the "fetus" is alive and human, and therefore a person. As well, that, in America at least, all PERSONS are created equal and all have the right to LIFE, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.
[/quote]

lol @ quoting the declaration of independance. do me a favor and go read the definition of a "person" as far as this country is concerned... then get back to me.


[quote name='Winchester' post='1132487' date='Nov 30 2006, 10:17 PM']
I recall it being natural law, but will require help as I've never bothered with the argument because it is unreasonable to deny that after conception, there is not a human life. Further, the source I am recalling is not within my memory or my reach. I'm at my side job. I used it a few years ago when writing a paper for my wife explaining why I could not vote for a member of the Democratic party, but could vote for a member of the Republican party. I find both parties reprehensible, but the platform of denying life to those who are completely helpless trumps other concerns of social justice, as it denies the most basic human right, from which all rights flow. Before it, the Republican stances against labor and fair business practices (I speak of the practical positions rather than the rhetoric surrounding them) pale in comparison. We can resist; the unborn are notoriously bad at self-defense.

I have before argued the mistake in the pro-abortion rights camp is in trying to deny the humanity of the unborn. They should rather go after denying the legal rights of the unborn and acknowledge that some human lives are not to be protected by the law.

The notion that an unborn child at any stage is not human is philosophically and medically indefensible.
[/quote]

but it is scientifically. Pro choice proponnents will argue, and provide proof, that the embryo is not aware during the first trimester.

[Farsight one]

Y'know...in a debate, if you make an argument for a point, you generally back it up with evidence yourself, instead of look to your opponent to find evidence against his own point of view. What I'm saying is, the burden of proof (citing the legal definition of "person" according to the law) is on you.

Either way, I've looked it up (though not recently) and I don't see your point.

Edit...just looked it up anyway(though in a generically legal sense not specific to the U.S.) : [url="http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/person"]http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/person[/url]

ooh look... "A human being".

Edited December 1, 2006 by Farsight one

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='zeyeon' post='1132491' date='Nov 30 2006, 10:40 PM']
but it is scientifically. Pro choice proponnents will argue, and provide proof, that the embryo is not aware during the first trimester.
[/quote]


Scientifically life begins at conception. Tell me something when does the life of a child a unborn baby, say a African-American little girl become worthy to have the right to exist? When will you stand up and protect her from being murdered, and when will you not stand it the way and let her die? When does it become immoral to enslave her body, and when does it not? When does the little girl change from being an "it", and become in your eyes a baby?

[zeyeon]

[quote name='KnightofChrist' post='1132507' date='Nov 30 2006, 10:56 PM']
Scientifically life begins at conception. Tell me something when does the life of a child a unborn baby, say a African-American little girl become worthy to have the right to exist? When will you stand up and protect her from being murdered, and when will you not stand it the way and let her die? When does it become immoral to enslave her body, and when does it not? When does the little girl change from being an "it", and become in your eyes a baby?
[/quote]

It's not my eyes that count. I have no idea... which is why I'm pro choice.

[Farsight one]

[quote name='zeyeon' post='1132516' date='Nov 30 2006, 10:08 PM']
It's not my eyes that count. I have no idea... which is why I'm pro choice.
[/quote]
1. So...Out of sight, out of mind then? You don't know and don't care? Kind of an apathetic point of view for such a morally important topic.
2.If not your eyes, then who's?
3.You have an idea - scientifically, life begins at conception. We've said that.

[zeyeon]

[quote name='Farsight one' post='1132518' date='Nov 30 2006, 11:14 PM']
1. So...Out of sight, out of mind then? You don't know and don't care? Kind of an apathetic point of view for such a morally important topic.
2.If not your eyes, then who's?
3.You have an idea - scientifically, life begins at conception. We've said that.
[/quote]

I never said I don't care. But I'll be honest I do care more about a fully developed human than an emrbyo. I care about the embryo as far as stemcell research goes in order to save someone from suffering. If the mother decides to go through with pregnancy, then I will care about the child. To me an embryo is not a child. it can't recognize me, it cant touch me... and most importantly... it's not my sperm. If it was my kid BET YOUR LIFE I will be fighting for it... but as for other embryo's... where are thier fathers?!

Most of you guys are opposed to it philisophically, and the lack of proof of when a child becomes a child is proof of that. you're not in the womans situation.

i'm not going to deny the ability of a woman to do what she wants to her body, based on a rough idea. The mother is capable of cognizant thought. I mean if the mother is even CONSIDERING abortion... do you really think it's best for the child to have her as a mother anyway?

Edited December 1, 2006 by zeyeon

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='zeyeon' post='1132516' date='Nov 30 2006, 11:08 PM']
It's not my eyes that count. I have no idea... which is why I'm pro choice.
[/quote]

Your eyes do count, you have a soul, you do matter. Everyone counts even the unborn. You have some idea you must if your any kind of logical person you must, one can not be pro-choice, or pro-life without some solid "idea" of the answers to the questions I asked. I believe you choose not to answer because you know within yourself you are conflicted.

You know within yourself or else you would have never asked does God give a child a soul. A truly pro-choice person would not ask such a question on a Christian website, they wouldnt care to even be here.

Edited December 1, 2006 by KnightofChrist

[zeyeon]

[quote name='KnightofChrist' post='1132523' date='Nov 30 2006, 11:22 PM']
Your eyes do count, you have a soul, you do matter. Everyone counts even the unborn. You have some idea you must if your any kind of logical person you must, one can not be pro-choice, or pro-life without some solid "idea" of the answers to the questions I asked. I believe you choose not to answer because you know within yourself you are conflicted.

You know within yourself or else you would have never asked does God give a child a soul. A truly pro-choice person would not ask such a question on a Christian website, they wouldnt care to even be here.
[/quote]

On the contrary a pro choice person even respects your choice... which is why I am indeed here.

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='zeyeon' post='1132524' date='Nov 30 2006, 11:24 PM']
On the contrary a pro choice person even respects your choice... which is why I am indeed here.
[/quote]


Yet another conflicting statement. Our "choices" are completely contrary to one another they can not co-exist, ether one is right or one is wrong. Ether the unborn African-American baby girl has the right to exist and can not have her body sold at market, or she is a sub-human, an "it", and can have "its" body parts sold to the highest bidder.

Edited December 1, 2006 by KnightofChrist

[Didacus]

It is the contrary that should be asked:

Prove to me a human does not have a soul at moment of conception.

If you cannot, the only way you can be certain of not committing murder is not to abort a fetus.