Protestant Traditions

[Resurrexi]

Their canon of the 'bible'
The KJV
No supreme apostolic authority

[Katholikos]

[quote name='mulls' post='1138330' date='Dec 8 2006, 06:54 PM']
this is an incredibly frustrating thread.

is everyone saying that communion is an unbiblical tradition?

or that a certain type of bread used deems it an unbiblical practice.

maybe we should do communion without bread. because the Lord's supper is in the bible, but we're not told what kind of bread to use, so that must be the only biblical way of doing it.

i'm a masochist for even continuing on with this thread.
[/quote]

Mulls, Protestants hold fast to Luther's doctrine of "Sola Scriptura," and we're just collecting and discussing a list of those doctrines or practices which are not found in [i]Scriptura[/i]. It's good for Catholics to collect such a list, I think, for apologetic purposes. So the next time a Protestant attacks us with the "traditions of men" argument, we can respond. The Catholic Church was founded by Christ. All Protestant churches were founded by mere men, beginning in the 16th century. So whose "traditions" are man made? And, as you know, we don't claim to base our faith on Scripture Alone.

Catholimaniac, a former Lutheran pastor told me that Wonder bread was used for the communion service at his church, and that the left-over bread was taken home for dinner! (Lutherans believe the body and blood of Christ exist "in, with, and under" the communion elements, but cease to exist after the service is over. )

I had forgotten about Accountability Partners -- thank you! Is this practiced in a non-denom church?

Peace, Jay

[Akalyte]

i just got done reading "where we got the bible and our debt to the Catholic Church" by Henry G Graham. AMAZING! very saddening that the protestants believe "Rome hates the bible". While all along they are the ones who have come up with countless versions of the bible with countless errors.

From the "he" bible to the "she" bible to the "vinegar" bible, "murderers" bible, "bug" bible, and many others. They were given those names because of mistranslations and mispellings. There are scolarsand theologians who have found over 6000 errors in many of the protestant bibles.

a man named "Ward" wrote a book called "Errata of the pProtestant Bible" in which he lists the many thousands of errors in the protestant bible. No protestant has been able to refute it.

So basically history shows that its not the Roman Catholic Church who hates the bible, but Protestantism which has done everything in its power to spread misenterpretations and mockeries of the Catholic bible. There have been found, protestant bibles that has notes and sketches mocking catholicism and her teachings.

[Chrysostomos]

[i]Crackers or Wonder bread for communion [/i]

although it is not the same our Byzantine brothers and sisters use leavened bread during their Mass

[i]Immersion only[/i]

there is nothing wrong with baptism by immersion

[i]Bowing head to pray[/i]

there is also nothing wrong with bowing your head to pray, i am a cradle catholic and i do it every day at Mass.

[White Knight]

[quote name='Katholikos' post='1131535' date='Nov 29 2006, 11:03 PM']
Anybody have any Protestant Traditions to add or subtract? Any comments?
------------------------------------------------------
Sola Scriptura (Scripture Alone)

Private, personal interpretation of Scripture

Sola Fide (Faith Alone)

Grape juice instead of wine for communion

Crackers or Wonder bread for communion

Altar calls

The "Sinner's Prayer"

Baptism isn't regenerative or necessary

Immersion only

Once Saved, Always Saved

Bowing head to pray

-----------------------------------------
Blessed Father Damien, pray for us!
[/quote]


Ummmm, I remember the majority of these, and some of them I was proud to say that I thought they were 100% true, but its not extactly right.

[avemaria40]

[quote name='got2luvjc' post='1137945' date='Dec 8 2006, 01:43 AM']
ooooohhhhhhhh!! that makes sense.

So I think that in light of this, some things should be corrected... I think some people said that Bible studies are a protestant practice, but I think it's a Christian practice, cuz I do Bible studies sometimes... I always like to learn Scripture... it's kinda cool ya know and head bowing too, it's a Christian thing, cuz in mass sometimes the priest says @ the end "please bow your heads and pray for God's blessing"

but "a Christian thing" doesn't = everyone does it, but it's open to everyone I suppose
[/quote]

I'm Catholic and my parish has Bible study. My mom really liked it

[Katholikos]

[quote name='Chrysostomos' post='1139222' date='Dec 10 2006, 12:56 PM']
[i]Crackers or Wonder bread for communion [/i]

although it is not the same our Byzantine brothers and sisters use leavened bread during their Mass[/quote]Yes, they do. Bread is specifically baked with prayerful hands for use in the divine liturgy. It is not baked for commercial sale and it is not taken home and eaten for dinner after the liturgy is over.

[quote][i]Immersion only[/i]

there is nothing wrong with baptism by immersion[/quote]No, there isn't. But there's something wrong with the doctrine that baptism by any method other than immersion is not valid. Some Protestants who say you must immerse also teach that baptism isn't necessary at all. From the beginning of Christianity, the Apostles taught baptism by infusion (pouring) or immersion (see the first century [i]Didache[/i], aka [i]The Teaching of the Twelve Apostles[/i]). The Bible teaches that baptism is necessary to enter heaven. The Church also recognizes sprinkling as a valid method of baptism. Methodist and others sprinkle.

[quote][i]Bowing head to pray[/i]

there is also nothing wrong with bowing your head to pray, i am a cradle catholic and i do it every day at Mass.[/quote]The entire Mass is a prayer. Catholics do not have to place themselves in any particular position to pray. The point is, the Bible does not direct that heads must be bowed to pray, but for some Protestants, it's mandatory.

This thread discusses beliefs and practices that are not in the Bible which are part of Protestant worship in some denomination or other. These doctrines and/or practices are not in the Bible. Not that there is anything wrong with them -- they are simply unbiblical, which conflicts with the stated Protestant belief of Sola Scriptura (Scripture Only or Scripture Alone).

Jay
-----------------------------
Blessed Father Damien, pray for us!

[cosiegirl]

[quote name='Katholikos' post='1138820' date='Dec 9 2006, 03:51 PM']
Mulls, Protestants hold fast to Luther's doctrine of "Sola Scriptura," and we're just collecting and discussing a list of those doctrines or practices which are not found in [i]Scriptura[/i]. It's good for Catholics to collect such a list, I think, for apologetic purposes. So the next time a Protestant attacks us with the "traditions of men" argument, we can respond. The Catholic Church was founded by Christ. All Protestant churches were founded by mere men, beginning in the 16th century. So whose "traditions" are man made? And, as you know, we don't claim to base our faith on Scripture Alone.

Catholimaniac, a former Lutheran pastor told me that Wonder bread was used for the communion service at his church, and that the left-over bread was taken home for dinner! (Lutherans believe the body and blood of Christ exist "in, with, and under" the communion elements, but cease to exist after the service is over. )

I had forgotten about Accountability Partners -- thank you! Is this practiced in a non-denom church?

Peace, Jay
[/quote]


It never ceases to amaze me how arrogant Catholic's are.

What is your proof that your Church was founded by Christ? I am assuming your proof is from the Bible. Likewise Protestant's believe they are correct in their beliefs based on the Bible, not Luther or anyone else.

The big difference in our "faiths" is that yours is dependent on men while mine is dependent on God through his Word. I would hope we would both agree that the scriptures are the inspired Word of God. As such, we place all our hope and trust in Him and His Word while your faith and salvation is filtered through men.

As such, you need your men to validate God's Word while I rely on the Sovereignty of God to write, compile, and protect his Word.

And your men weren't even in full agreement until the 16th century when your Bible was finally declared by the Council of Trent.

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='SolaScriptura' post='1139940' date='Dec 11 2006, 06:43 PM']
It never ceases to amaze me how arrogant Catholic's are.

What is your proof that your Church was founded by Christ? I am assuming your proof is from the Bible. Likewise Protestant's believe they are correct in their beliefs based on the Bible, not Luther or anyone else.

The big difference in our "faiths" is that yours is dependent on men while mine is dependent on God through his Word. I would hope we would both agree that the scriptures are the inspired Word of God. As such, we place all our hope and trust in Him and His Word while your faith and salvation is filtered through men.

As such, you need your men to validate God's Word while I rely on the Sovereignty of God to write, compile, and protect his Word.

And your men weren't even in full agreement until the 16th century when your Bible was finally declared by the Council of Trent.
[/quote]
Christ only founded one Church. After Christ died the members of the Church started collecting writings of its various members and circulating them and that is the basis of the New Testament. The Church is older than the New Testament. The Church in fact picked out which books were authentic and established the canon or list of books in the Catholic bible of today. 15th century men removed books on their own authority and altered the Word of God. The Bible comes from the Church, not the church from a bible. Once you understand that fact, you can understand that Christ did not write a book, but left a Church as stated in Timothy" the Church is the pillar..."

[Akalyte]

[quote name='SolaScriptura' post='1139940' date='Dec 11 2006, 05:43 PM']
It never ceases to amaze me how arrogant Catholic's are.

What is your proof that your Church was founded by Christ? I am assuming your proof is from the Bible. Likewise Protestant's believe they are correct in their beliefs based on the Bible, not Luther or anyone else.

The big difference in our "faiths" is that yours is dependent on men while mine is dependent on God through his Word. I would hope we would both agree that the scriptures are the inspired Word of God. As such, we place all our hope and trust in Him and His Word while your faith and salvation is filtered through men.

As such, you need your men to validate God's Word while I rely on the Sovereignty of God to write, compile, and protect his Word.

And your men weren't even in full agreement until the 16th century when your Bible was finally declared by the Council of Trent.
[/quote]

Hello and peace be with you.

The argument is highly flawed. First of all, the church existed before the bible. For 300 years Christians had no bibles
Until the catholic church came together in the councils of carthage and hippo 393-397 A.D. (grab a hold of something) and put a list of writings together, and named it "the bible". This bible included the greek septuagint, 7 books from the alexandrine canon) Which Jesus and his apostles used. (which protestants reject and title "doubtful") Books, which by the way The writers of the new testament, referenced many times when writing it. :


We dont depend on men, by the way. We depend on God who works through them. It's something how protestants believe we rely on men, yet they believe their pastors are spirit led and they themselves are guided by the spirit. I sense selfishness and pride here.

[Akalyte]

Proof Christ founded our Church:

Matt 16:18

18 And I say to thee: That thou art Peter; and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. 19 And I will give to thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven. And whatsoever thou shalt bind upon earth, it shall be bound also in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose upon earth, it shall be loosed also in heaven.

Who else has successors who can trace their authority back to Saint Peter?





Bottom line: Christ spoke Aramaic and nicknamed Simon "Kepha," ("Cephas") which means "Rock." Most of the New Testament was written in Greek (or translated into Greek, as is possible in the case of Matthew's Book), and Kepha was translated as "Petros" or "Petra" (depending on stylistic needs of the context), which both mean "Rock." In our English Bibles, "Petros" and "Petra" get translated into "Peter." 1 Peter IS "the Rock," the earthly head of Christ's Church as Christ Himself states in Matthew 16. This would be as if you and I, speaking English and discussing someone named Mary, were quoted by an Italian who wrote her name as "Maria," which a Frenchman translated as "Marie".

Many Protestants try to get around Matthew 16:15-19 by pointing to 1 Corinthians 10:3-5 "And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ." But this is something no Catholic would disagree with! Yes, the SPIRITUAL Rock, Christ, the High Priest and Head of the Church, authorized Peter to be the earthly Rock, His Vicar, of the Church -- the father of the New Covenant, just as God the Father made Abraham the earthly father of the Old Covenant (Isaiah 51:1-2) while remaining the ultimate, SPIRITUAL Father of that Covenant.


But where is the word "pope" in the Bible? Well, where is the word "father,"because that's what "Pope" means ("pope" means "papa") . But you won't find the English word "pope" there any more than you'd find the word "Trinity." The reality, though, is there, in Peter, from the very beginning. The ecclesiastical offices of Bishops (episkopos), elders (presbyteros, from which is derived the word "priest"), and deacons (diakonos) were already in place in the New Testament (Acts 20:28, Philippians 1:1, Acts 1:20, 20:28, Philippians 1:1, 1 Timothy 3:1-2, Titus 1:7, 1 Peter 2:25, Acts 15:2-6, 21:18, Hebrews 11:2, 1 Peter 5:1, 1 Timothy 5:17). The Pope, as Bishop of Rome, is simply the successor of Peter, who was the first Bishop of Rome and head of the earthly Church.

Eusebius of Caesaria (A.D. 265-340) tells us in his "Church History" who succeeded him:

Ch. 2
"After the martyrdom of Paul and of Peter, Linus was the first to obtain the episcopate of the church at Rome. Paul mentions him, when writing to Timothy from Rome, in the salutation at the end of the epistle".

Ch. 13
"After [Emperor] Vespasian had reigned ten years Titus, his son, succeeded him. In the second year of his reign, Linus, who had been bishop of the church of Rome for twelve years [Note: it was actually 9 years], delivered his office to Anencletus. But Titus was succeeded by his brother Domitian after he had reigned two years and the same number of months."

Ch. 15
"In the twelfth year of the same reign Clement succeeded Anencletus after the latter had been bishop of the church of Rome for twelve years. The apostle in his Epistle to the Philippians informs us that this Clement was his fellow-worker. His words are as follows: 'With Clement and the rest of my fellow-laborers whose names are in the book of life.'"



This is what the 4th pope clement has said:





Chapter 40

These things therefore being manifest to us, and since we look into the depths of the divine knowledge, it behoves us to do all things in their proper order, which the Lord has commanded us to perform at stated times. He has enjoined offerings to be presented and service to be performed to Him, and that not thoughtlessly or irregularly, but at the appointed times and hours. Where and by whom He desires these things to be done, He Himself has fixed by His own supreme will, in order that all things being piously done according to His good pleasure, may be acceptable to Him. Those, therefore, who present their offerings at the appointed times, are accepted and blessed; for inasmuch as they follow the laws of the Lord, they sin not. For his own peculiar services are assigned to the high priest, and their own proper place is prescribed to the priests, and their own special ministrations devolve on the Levites. The layman is bound by the laws that pertain to laymen.

Chapter 41

Let every one of you, brethren, give thanks to God in his own order, living in all good conscience, with becoming gravity, and not going beyond the rule of the ministry prescribed to him. Not in every place, brethren, are the daily sacrifices offered, or the peace-offerings, or the sin-offerings and the trespass-offerings, but in Jerusalem only. And even there they are not offered in any place, but only at the altar before the temple, that which is offered being first carefully examined by the high priest and the ministers already mentioned. Those, therefore, who do anything beyond that which is agreeable to His will, are punished with death. You see, brethren, that the greater the knowledge that has been vouchsafed to us, the greater also is the danger to which we are exposed.

Chapter 42

The apostles have preached the Gospel to us from the Lord Jesus Christ; Jesus Christ has done so from God. Christ therefore was sent forth by God, and the apostles by Christ. Both these appointments, then, were made in an orderly way, according to the will of God. Having therefore received their orders, and being fully assured by the resurrection of our Lord Jesus Christ, and established in the word of God, with full assurance of the Holy Ghost, they went forth proclaiming that the kingdom of God was at hand. And thus preaching through countries and cities, they appointed the first-fruits of their labours, having first proved them by the Spirit, to be bishops and deacons of those who should afterwards believe. Nor was this any new thing, since indeed many ages before it was written concerning bishops and deacons. For thus says the Scripture a certain place, "I will appoint their bishops in righteousness, and their deacons in faith."

Chapter 43

And what wonder is it if those in Christ who were entrusted with such a duty by God, appointed those ministers before mentioned, when the blessed Moses also, "a faithful servant in all his house," noted down in the sacred books all the injunctions which were given him, and when the other prophets also followed him, bearing witness with one consent to the ordinances which he had appointed? For, when rivalry arose concerning the priesthood, and the tribes were contending among themselves as to which of them should be adorned with that glorious title, he commanded the twelve princes of the tribes to bring him their rods, each one being inscribed with the name of the tribe. And he took them and bound them together, and sealed them with the rings of the princes of the tribes, and laid them up in the tabernacle of witness on the table of God. And having shut the doors of the tabernacle, he sealed the keys, as he had done the rods, and said to them, Men and brethren, the tribe whose rod shall blossom has God chosen to fulfil the office of the priesthood, and to minister to Him. And when the morning was come, he assembled all Israel, six hundred thousand men, and showed the seals to the princes of the tribes, and opened the tabernacle of witness, and brought forth the rods. And the rod of Aaron was found not only to have blossomed, but to bear fruit upon it. What think you, beloved? Did not Moses know beforehand that this would happen? Undoubtedly he knew; but he acted thus, that there might be no sedition in Israel, and that the name of the true and only God might be glorified; to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.

Chapter 44

Our apostles also knew, through our Lord Jesus Christ, and there would be strife on account of the office of the episcopate. For this reason, therefore, inasmuch as they had obtained a perfect fore-knowledge of this, they appointed those presbyters already mentioned, and afterwards gave instructions, that when these should fall asleep, other approved men should succeed them in their ministry. We are of opinion, therefore, that those appointed by them, or afterwards by other eminent men, with the consent of the whole Church, and who have blame-lessly served the flock of Christ in a humble, peaceable, and disinterested spirit, and have for a long time possessed the good opinion of all, cannot be justly dismissed from the ministry. For our sin will not be small, if we eject from the episcopate those who have blamelessly and holily fulfilled its duties. Blessed are those presbyters who, having finished their course before now, have obtained a fruitful and perfect departure [from this world]; for they have no fear lest any one deprive them of the place now appointed them. But we see that you have removed some men of excellent behaviour from the ministry, which they fulfilled blamelessly and with honour.


Here; a entire list of Popes. [url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12272b.htm"]http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12272b.htm[/url]

Edited December 12, 2006 by Akalyte

[Chrysostomos]

[quote name='Katholikos' post='1139549' date='Dec 11 2006, 02:46 AM']
point is, the Bible does not direct that heads must be bowed to pray, but for some Protestants, it's mandatory.

This thread discusses beliefs and practices that are not in the Bible which are part of Protestant worship in some denomination or other. These doctrines and/or practices are not in the Bible. Not that there is anything wrong with them -- they are simply unbiblical, which conflicts with the stated Protestant belief of Sola Scriptura
[/quote]

There are plenty of biblical references for bowing and praying.

In Gen 24:26 "The man bowed his head and worshiped the Lord."
In Ex 4:31 "...They bowed their heads and worshiped."
In Ex 12:27 "...And the people bowed their heads and worshiped."
(All these come from the NRSV)

So although it is not required there clearly is a biblical precedent for bowing one's head to pray (worship)

Also, im not suggesting that it was ok to take random bread and use it in the liturgy but I was saying that is ok to use leavened bread for communion. Some people seemed shocked by that.



* Edited to correct a few typos

Edited December 12, 2006 by Chrysostomos

[Sojourner]

[quote name='Katholikos' post='1138820' date='Dec 9 2006, 01:51 PM']
I had forgotten about Accountability Partners -- thank you! Is this practiced in a non-denom church?
[/quote]
I did it as a Presbyterian ... and kept it up with the same group after I became Catholic. I miss them now that I'm in a different city ...

[homeschoolmom]

[quote name='Terra Firma' post='1140360' date='Dec 12 2006, 10:33 AM']
I did it as a Presbyterian ... and kept it up with the same group after I became Catholic. I miss them now that I'm in a different city ...
[/quote]
I don't see how accountablity partners are problematic, actually.

[catholimaniac]

[quote name='Katholikos' post='1138820' date='Dec 9 2006, 03:51 PM']Catholimaniac, a former Lutheran pastor told me that Wonder bread was used for the communion service at his church, and that the left-over bread was taken home for dinner! (Lutherans believe the body and blood of Christ exist "in, with, and under" the communion elements, but cease to exist after the service is over. )

I had forgotten about Accountability Partners -- thank you! Is this practiced in a non-denom church? [/quote]

I wonder if Lutherans believe Christ leaves the newly baptized after they have dried off, or that he leaves newlyweds as soon as they exit the church after the wedding ceremony is over?

I first heard of Accountability Partners from a Methodist, but I believe it's a Protestant movement and not particular to one denomination. Sort of like the Alpha courses. Hey there's another Protestant tradition!

Last Lent the Presbyterian church near me had a big purple banner which read, 40 DAYS OF PURPOSE. They mailed flyers to the nearby neighborhoods inviting us over for services. They offered us a free book, something about a 'purpose filled life'. It looks like the start of a great tradition.

There was also an article in the paper about start up churches. They talked about some of the traditions they do. One tradition was to go through the neighborhoods passing out 2 cent stamps after the postal rates went up. The pastor was quoted as saying, "I guess you could say we're just starting our own traditions".

Yeah, we know.

God bless,

Tad