Protestant Traditions

[DangerBoy]

[quote name='homeschoolmom' post='1131842' date='Nov 30 2006, 11:52 AM']
But these are all some traditions (small t) for some protestants... None of these traditions is accepted by all Protestants (with the possible exception of head bowing).
[/quote]

I think that is part of what I don't quite understand. There is a lot of variation between different denominations, even between different churches. I've been to many Protestant churches and each one seems to have its own "traditions". What we are listing here is better described as being some of the basic principles and practices of a majority of Protestant churches, not traditions in the Catholic sense of the word.


I think one of the big things is that, with I think the exception of Lutherans, they veiw communion as symbol, not as the actual body and blood of Christ.


[quote]here is some to remember:

Liftinging hands during prayer

Rolling in the ailes

speaking in tounges[/quote]


I don't think that these can be considered "traditions", just for the Protestant, I know Catholics who speak in tounges during prayer, plus we lift our hands when we say the Our Father during Mass. As for rolling in the ailes, I think that's more of form a charasmatic prayer, which I have seen happen at my parish's youth group meetings.

Let's be carful not to over generalize.

+JMJ+

Edited November 30, 2006 by Lil Red

[photosynthesis]

turning nouns into verbs (i.e. "fellowshipping," "visioning")
decent choral music.
megachurch architechture
manuscript bible studies
once-a-month communion
[url="http://www.parable.com/parable/item_0805471197.htm"]pre-filled/sealed communion cups[/url]

[homeschoolmom]

[quote name='photosynthesis' post='1131934' date='Nov 30 2006, 01:08 PM'][url="http://www.parable.com/parable/item_0805471197.htm"]pre-filled/sealed communion cups[/url]
[/quote]
Now that's a new one. I have never heard of that!!

[Katholikos]

I know of only two traditions that are shared by every Protestant denomination: Sola Scriptura and Sola Fide. Those were two of the "pillars" of Protestantism when it was founded by Martin Luther. There were other "solas" -- five in all -- and although the Catholic Church may not agree with the other three exactly in the same formulation that Protestants do, they are not huge obstacles like SS and SF.

Even in Luther's day, denominationalism was already rampant. That apparently was a surprise to him, judging from his comments. I think he expected his interpretation of the Scriptures to be final. He could not tolerate Calvin and others who almost immediately arose on the scene with conflicting interpretations IAW the newfound doctrine of Sola Scriptura and its concomitant notion of private interpretation.

Protestants don't have any Traditions (oral teachings of the Apostles that were not reduced to writing and later identified by the Church as Scripture). But although they may not generally recognize them, they have many traditions. I thought I would try to accomulate a list of them for use in apologetics. We often encounter the claim about the "traditions of men" in Catholic beliefs and practices, and these are intended to be used as an antidote. Sola Scriptura Protestants have many traditions that did not originate from the Bible.

The splintering of Protestantism can be seen in the traditions that are "found" in the Bible by some denoms and not others, for example, Once Saved, Always Saved.

If the Holy Spirit leads all "sincere" believers to "all truth" when they read the Bible, shouldn't they all believe the same doctrines? How can you tell which one is right? Those in a nutshell are the questions that propelled me out of Protestantism and into agnosticism and eventually atheism. Years later, I found the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church, which insists upon Fides et Ratio.

I posted this is in the debate forum, since I thought there would likely be some debate about these "traditions."

Peace to all who post at Phatmass.

-----------------------------------------
Blessed Father Damien, pray for us!

edited to correct a typo

Edited November 30, 2006 by Katholikos

[homeschoolmom]

baby dedications

[mulls]

[quote]We often encounter the claim about the "traditions of men" in Catholic beliefs and practices, and these are intended to be used as an antidote.[/quote]

antidote? fight fire with fire huh?

[quote]Sola Scriptura Protestants have many traditions that did not originate from the Bible.[/quote]

duh. it's not a problem. no sane protestant would condemn another one if they didn't practice any number of these traditions, because it's not mandated in the bible.

the difference is, as catholics, you [b]must[/b] do a bunch of stuff that's not in the bible, because Tradition is part of the 3-legged stool, right? that's the argument from the protestant side.

[homeschoolmom]

[quote name='mulls' post='1132153' date='Nov 30 2006, 04:49 PM'] because Tradition is part of the 3-legged stool, right? that's the argument from the protestant side.
[/quote]
Isn't the three-legged stool the branches of gov't (legislative, executive, judicial)? I'm not familiar with a three legged Catholic stool. I'm not poking fun, just claiming ignorance.

[cosiegirl]

Don't forget these annoying Protestant traditions:

- Expecting people to be saved through their relationship with Christ rather their relationship with a Church.

- Not adding works to keep salvation.

- Respecting the Bible as God's inerrant and perfect Word rather than "the Church's Book".

[mulls]

ha get'em SS!


[quote name='homeschoolmom' post='1132157' date='Nov 30 2006, 05:55 PM']
Isn't the three-legged stool the branches of gov't (legislative, executive, judicial)? I'm not familiar with a three legged Catholic stool. I'm not poking fun, just claiming ignorance.
[/quote]


this is how it's been explained to me multiple times. the Church is built on the 3-legged stool of Scripture, Tradition, and the Magisterium, each having an equal amount of authority.

who says i'm not catechized?

Edited November 30, 2006 by mulls

[Era Might]

[quote name='mulls' post='1132172' date='Nov 30 2006, 05:04 PM']this is how it's been explained to me multiple times. the Church is built on the 3-legged stool of Scripture, Tradition, and the Magisterium, each having an equal amount of authority.[/quote]
Close, but not fully accurate. Scripture and Tradition are given directly by God through the Apostles. The Magisterium is the servant of Scripture and Tradition. The Magisterium has authority in the sense that it is the authentic steward of Divine Revelation, but it does not have "equal authority" in the strict sense; for example, Scripture is inspired, whereas the Magisterium is protected, but not inspired. It would be more accurate to say that all three legs are indispensable, rather than that they have equal authority. Here is how the Second Vatican Council describes it:

[quote]It is clear, therefore, that sacred tradition, Sacred Scripture and the teaching authority of the Church, in accord with God's most wise design, are so linked and joined together that one cannot stand without the others, and that all together and each in its own way under the action of the one Holy Spirit contribute effectively to the salvation of souls.[/quote]
Scripture and Tradition are the sources. The Magisterium is the bearer of information rather than its own source. It's similar to the concept of soul and body. Both are intimately united and necessary, but the soul is what informs the body, whereas the body takes its direction from the soul. Scripture and Tradition are the sources of Divine Revelation, and the Magisterium is the body by which this deposit of faith lives. It is not the body that dictates for the soul, but the soul that dictates for the body.

[Katholikos]

[quote name='SolaScriptura' post='1132164' date='Nov 30 2006, 06:01 PM']
Don't forget these annoying Protestant traditions:

- Expecting people to be saved through their relationship with Christ rather their relationship with a Church.[/quote]There is no dichotomy between Christ and His Church. He is the Head, the Church is His very Body, His Bride. The Resurrected Christ's words to Saul/Paul on the Road to Damascus: Why are you persecuting ME? St. Paul was persecuting the CHURCH. Christ and His Church are one and the same. "He cannot have God for a Father who has not the Church for a Mother" St. Cyprian.

[quote]Not adding works to keep salvation.[/quote]Sola Fide is a 16th century heresy.

[quote]Respecting the Bible as God's inerrant and perfect Word rather than "the Church's Book".[/quote]I continue to ask you, and you continue to ignore the question: Which Bible, Whose Canon? There are many different "Bibles" -- and I don't mean translations. How do you know which one is the 'real' Word of God? Are all of them "inerrant" and "perfect?" How do you know which writings belong in the Bible? Without the testimony of the Catholic Church who wrote the NT and formed the Bible, you can only say "I believe it because I believe it."

As we keep telling you, the CHURCH is the "household of God, the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of truth" 1 Tm 3:15.

Look for the Church that was born in 33 A.D. at Pentecost, the Church that teaches the same in the 21st century as she taught in the first century. All Protestant churches follow the traditions of men. We know when they were founded and the names of their founders -- names like John Wesley, John Smyth, and Martin Luther, and thousands more. The founder of the Catholic Church was Jesus Christ, God Himself.

======================
Blessed Father Damien, pray for us!

[Ellenita]

Protestant traditions I really miss:

kneeling to receive communion
incense
Bible study during the week
exuberance at baptisms/confirmations
joyful hymn singing


While I may be 'undoing' years of protestant theology in the teaching I received, I truely believe the discipline of daily bible study was a good grounding in my life as Christian.

[homeschoolmom]

[quote name='Ellenita' post='1134717' date='Dec 4 2006, 11:27 AM']
Protestant traditions I really miss:

kneeling to receive communion
incense
Bible study during the week
exuberance at baptisms/confirmations
joyful hymn singing
While I may be 'undoing' years of protestant theology in the teaching I received, I truely believe the discipline of daily bible study was a good grounding in my life as Christian.
[/quote]
Yep, to all of the above.

[Katholikos]

[quote name='mulls' post='1132153' date='Nov 30 2006, 05:49 PM']

duh. it's not a problem. no sane protestant would condemn another one if they didn't practice any number of these traditions, because it's not mandated in the bible.[/quote]None of them are mandated in the Bible. That's the point. Why do folks who claim to base their faith on Sola Scriptura develop these unbiblical practices?

[quote]the difference is, as catholics, you [b]must[/b] do a bunch of stuff that's not in the bible, because Tradition is part of the 3-legged stool, right? that's the argument from the protestant side.
[/quote]"And so, brethren, stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught by us, either by word of mouth or by letter" 2 Thess 2:15 RSV.

"I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven and whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven" Mt 16:18-19.

"Who hears you hears me . . ." Lk 10:16.

=======================
Blessed Father Damien, pray for us!

[Winchester]

I think this would be better condensed as a rejoinder as opposed to an opening broadside cannonade.