Christianity Vs. Wicca And Neo-paganism

[Socrates]

[quote name='Lahecil' post='1135055' date='Dec 4 2006, 07:03 PM']
From what I understand, most Wiccan soldiers make their argument by pointing out that Harming none includes not harming the self. By enlisting they are protecting their own lives and their families, which is fairly reasonable, even if it involves harming others at some point. Everyone has the right to live (even opposing armies), but everyone also has the right to protect themselves.[/quote]
This is not unlike the Christian concept of just war and a right to self-defense. Note: I was not saying it was wrong for Wiccans to join the armed forces, but was just pointing out that I don't really see how pagans are so much different from Christians here.

[quote]Of course there was war before Christianity (which is sad no matter the reason or whether it's pre or post the birth of Christ). I wish all the reasons were soley for the sake of protecting one's own, but unfortunately, every age and every faith has its own corruption and discrepancies.

A reason I believe Wicca IS true, is because of the belief that we are a part of the earth, not simply its inhabitants. I don't believe that one is complete without the other.[/quote]
The Bible teaches that God created man from the dust of the earth (pre-existing physical matter). However, God breathed into man an immortal soul, so we are so much more than mere dust (or dUSt - sorry, couldn't resist). We depend on the earth to live, but the earth is not our creator, not a god/dess. We worship the God Who created Heaven and Earth, not the heaven and earth themselves, which God has condemned as idolotry.

[quote]I agree that Christianity and paganism are irreconcilable (though there are Christian Wiccans there are many arguments both for and against this). All I mean is that there is a chance that Christianity is not the true faith. I have to take the "We'll all find out when we die" stance here. [/quote]
Perhaps the only way of knowing with absolute certainity (outside of Faith) is death, but you might consider Pascal's wager.

And when choosing between Faith in Jesus Christ, whose miracles and resurrection from the dead supported His claims to be Son of the Living God, and were witnessed by many who faced martyrdom rather than deny this, and whose Church, founded upon St. Peter has been incontinuous existence for over 2000 years
vs.
Gerald Gardner, who threw together a hodge-podge of various and sundry occult sources in the 1950s, whose various sources included the work of sickos and satanists like Aleister Crowley,
I think the choice is clear.

[Lahecil]

[quote]This is not unlike the Christian concept of just war and a right to self-defense. Note: I was not saying it was wrong for Wiccans to join the armed forces, but was just pointing out that I don't really see how pagans are so much different from Christians here.[/quote]
I think that perhaps the difference goes back to the Harm None rule in Wicca--We can't be absolved of anything we do that hurts ourselves or others, we have to take what is given to us.

[quote]The Bible teaches that God created man from the dust of the earth (pre-existing physical matter). However, God breathed into man an immortal soul, so we are so much more than mere dust (or dUSt - sorry, couldn't resist). We depend on the earth to live, but the earth is not our creator, not a god/dess. We worship the God Who created Heaven and Earth, not the heaven and earth themselves, which God has condemned as idolotry.[/quote]
The way I see it (as always, never claiming to speak for the community) The God and Goddess ARE the dust (or dUSt ), the earth, and so on. Ann Moura (she's not too great of an author, but she makes a few good points, despite her biases) had a good way of putting it: God is the life (and death), Goddess is the body. I find this to be true on both the large and small scales. The Goddess is the earth/human body and the God is what animates both. Pantheism makes a ban on idolotry a little pointless for me.

[quote]Perhaps the only way of knowing with absolute certainity (outside of Faith) is death, but you might consider Pascal's wager.

And when choosing between Faith in Jesus Christ, whose miracles and resurrection from the dead supported His claims to be Son of the Living God, and were witnessed by many who faced martyrdom rather than deny this, and whose Church, founded upon St. Peter has been incontinuous existence for over 2000 years
vs.
Gerald Gardner, who threw together a hodge-podge of various and sundry occult sources in the 1950s, whose various sources included the work of sickos and satanists like Aleister Crowley,
I think the choice is clear.[/quote]
Does age make a difference though? Was Christianity any less true the day Christ was resurrected than how true it is now?

And while many witnessed Christ's return...they could be lying. A personal divine experience isn't always necessarily true. I'm not saying that they WERE lying, since I obviously wasn't there and wouldn't know(unless we want to bring up reincarnation! ), but I can also say that I have heard and felt the voice of my Goddess and God (which is true) but that doesn't mean that my religion IS true, I just believe that it is.

[cathoholic_anonymous]

[quote]Does age make a difference though? Was Christianity any less true the day Christ was resurrected than how true it is now?[/quote]

Glory be to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Spirit, as it was in the beginning, is now, and ever shall be.

That prayer sums up the Christian idea of God's relationship to time. He is not bound by it. Therefore the Jesus who rose from the dead is the same Jesus who was present at the beginning of time itself. The same Jesus is with us now, and for this reason His church stands outside time.

But in human terms, age matters very much. When St Paul's preaching was causing a storm in the Holy Land, one of the learned Jews counselled his colleagues not to harm Paul, arguing that if the Gospel was of human origin it would die away. If it came from God, it would stand forever.

Christianity (and its mother Judaism) have lasted for thousands of years. Paganism has been around for a long time, it is true, but the different sects of paganism are even more varied than the many Christian churches. These sects have repeatedly fizzled out and then been resurrected, with several modifications and amalgamations. Paganism doesn't possess the sacred continuity that distinguishes Catholicism - and it never has. I know that I believe in the exact same things that were taught and preached two thousand years ago, because Jesus' church has been able to stand the test of time. I have yet to meet a pagan who can lay claim to the same heritage.

[Socrates]

[quote name='Lahecil' post='1135695' date='Dec 5 2006, 04:41 PM']
I think that perhaps the difference goes back to the Harm None rule in Wicca--We can't be absolved of anything we do that hurts ourselves or others, we have to take what is given to us.[/quote]
And how do you know that? Was it just revealed to Gerald Gardner or did he (or someone) else figure it out on his own?
Who absolves us, then? You've said that your God/Goddess contains both good and evil.
If your deity is not pure Good, why can we count on him to reward or punish people justly for their deeds?

[quote]The way I see it (as always, never claiming to speak for the community) The God and Goddess ARE the dust (or dUSt ), the earth, and so on. Ann Moura (she's not too great of an author, but she makes a few good points, despite her biases) had a good way of putting it: God is the life (and death), Goddess is the body. I find this to be true on both the large and small scales. The Goddess is the earth/human body and the God is what animates both. Pantheism makes a ban on idolotry a little pointless for me. [/quote]
Pantheism is really philosophically untenable, and ultimately boils down to no God. If everything is God, then what's the point of even speaking of God?
As a man, my body is NOT a goddess, and I have a personal soul distinct from God.


[quote]Does age make a difference though? Was Christianity any less true the day Christ was resurrected than how true it is now?

And while many witnessed Christ's return...they could be lying. A personal divine experience isn't always necessarily true. I'm not saying that they WERE lying, since I obviously wasn't there and wouldn't know(unless we want to bring up reincarnation! ), but I can also say that I have heard and felt the voice of my Goddess and God (which is true) but that doesn't mean that my religion IS true, I just believe that it is.[/quote]
"Cathoholic" actually already answered this more eloquently than I could.

While age in itself does not prove the Christian/Catholic religion true, the continuity of the Church 2000 years of history is a powerful argument (not to mention the thousands more years of God's covenant with the Jewish people, fulfilled ultimately in the coming of the Christ).

And (while I don't have time to go into all the detail here), many witnesses willingly faced persecution and even death to testify for Christ. If this wa a hoax, you'd think at least one would come clean when faced with persecution or death!
And not only that, but Christ has continued to inspire martyrs and witness to this very day!

If many Wiccans started facing death rather than deny the divinity and resurrection of Mr. Gardner, you might at least more of a case regarding the authority of his teachings.

Thus far, Christianity has far more to back it up.

You've offered little proof for Wicca beyond your personal feelings.

[Lahecil]

[quote]And how do you know that? Was it just revealed to Gerald Gardner or did he (or someone) else figure it out on his own?
Who absolves us, then? You've said that your God/Goddess contains both good and evil.
If your deity is not pure Good, why can we count on him to reward or punish people justly for their deeds?[/quote]
The God and Goddess don't punish or reward our actions, karma does. I guess you could argue that as a pantheist, karma is a part of Deity, but there is no judgement or emotion or forgiveness involved. What you do comes back to you, irregardless of how you feel about it.

[quote]Pantheism is really philosophically untenable, and ultimately boils down to no God. If everything is God, then what's the point of even speaking of God?
As a man, my body is NOT a goddess, and I have a personal soul distinct from God.[/quote]
I don't understand how it doesn't work. Spirit is in everything, and that is WHY we can speak to it. As a part of Spirit ourselves, don't we have a responsibility to take care of ourselves and others? Asking for guidance from Spirit is an obvious way to understand your own life better, or asking for changes (i.e., spells).

All (anatomically speaking) men and women have both male and female aspects to them. Guys do like to cuddle babies, and women like to throw a punch every so often, though each action is usually associated with the opposite gender. Even the Gods are not free from this intrinsic duality, since we are all, ultimately, the same thing. The first example I can think of here is the Morrigan.

[quote]"Cathoholic" actually already answered this more eloquently than I could.

While age in itself does not prove the Christian/Catholic religion true, the continuity of the Church 2000 years of history is a powerful argument (not to mention the thousands more years of God's covenant with the Jewish people, fulfilled ultimately in the coming of the Christ).

And (while I don't have time to go into all the detail here), many witnesses willingly faced persecution and even death to testify for Christ. If this wa a hoax, you'd think at least one would come clean when faced with persecution or death!
And not only that, but Christ has continued to inspire martyrs and witness to this very day!

If many Wiccans started facing death rather than deny the divinity and resurrection of Mr. Gardner, you might at least more of a case regarding the authority of his teachings.[/quote]
I would readily die for my religion, and for all I know, Gardner may have been resurrected already, or, rather, reincarnated.

There are examples of continued pagan traditions, however. There are several people that I know who are a part of family traditions. Unfortunately, there's no documentation of how far back these traditions go, since most traditions are passed down orally. While paganism may not have been overtly continuous for the past 2000 years, it did survive. This is a pretty good short summary of paganism into modern times: [url="http://davensjournal.com/index.htm?TOC.htm&1"]http://davensjournal.com/index.htm?TOC.htm&1[/url] I know the author fairly well (members of the same forum) and he is quite possibly the greatest authority of Seax-Wica, second only to Mr. Raymond Buckland himself, he knows his stuff.

[quote]Thus far, Christianity has far more to back it up.

You've offered little proof for Wicca beyond your personal feelings.[/quote]
I fail to see how this is true. There is a man who claimed to be the son of God, a very cliched idea, since pharohs had been doing that for ages, and then a book compiled by men, and a church founded by a man. People have believed in them for 2000 years, on no basis other than their own faith and the precedent of others before them who said they witnessed the return of Christ.

Wicca also is based on personal faith, but that faith is made extremely clear by simply looking out of a window, where all things exist in a perfect male/female duality, creating a generally genderless world held in balance by certain events that are the result of actions. Which one makes more sense?

[Socrates]

[quote name='Lahecil' post='1137609' date='Dec 7 2006, 06:26 PM']
The God and Goddess don't punish or reward our actions, karma does. I guess you could argue that as a pantheist, karma is a part of Deity, but there is no judgement or emotion or forgiveness involved. What you do comes back to you, irregardless of how you feel about it.[/quote]
What evidence do you have for karma? As Christians, we beleive in heaven and hell because it is revealed doctrine, and it is fitting with the nature of just God we must answer to. Grace allows us to share in the life of our All-Good and All-Just Creator, while sin (evil) is that which cuts us off from God (damnation).

I am not saying your idea is completely baseless, as it mirrors in a way Christian teaching (though the understanding of the nature of good and evil is different), and appeals to our universal human sense of justice.
However, karma seems just as much an article of faith as the Christian concept of eternal reward and punishment. Do you have anyway of knowing that a good person is rewarded after his death (either in an afterlife or reincarnation), and that an evil person is punished.

It seems that without beleif in an all-good and all-just God, there is no real basis for this - it becomes simply hopeful thinking.

[quote]I don't understand how it doesn't work. Spirit is in everything, and that is WHY we can speak to it. As a part of Spirit ourselves, don't we have a responsibility to take care of ourselves and others? Asking for guidance from Spirit is an obvious way to understand your own life better, or asking for changes (i.e., spells).[/quote]
God created the universe and keeps it in existance, but He is a distinct Being from His creation, which is dependent on Him. However, God, being Pure Act, depends on nothing for His Existance.

If God and the universe are the same, how did the universe come to be?
And I'd be careful about asking a spirit for advice! Not all spirits are good. (I know your Wiccan beliefs probably say differently, but think about it - would you ask any human stranger for advice on something you didn't know about, without knowing more on the background and character of this person?)

[quote]All (anatomically speaking) men and women have both male and female aspects to them. Guys do like to cuddle babies, and women like to throw a punch every so often, though each action is usually associated with the opposite gender. Even the Gods are not free from this intrinsic duality, since we are all, ultimately, the same thing. The first example I can think of here is the Morrigan.
I would readily die for my religion, and for all I know, Gardner may have been resurrected already, or, rather, reincarnated.[/quote]
Again, philosophically speaking, there can only be One True God. (Even the pagan Greek philosophers were able to come to this conclusion through their use of reason.)
This God is Pure Act, Being Himself, and is thus purely simple and perfect, having no "parts" or "duality" of any kind.
(This is a bit much to explain in this limited space, but suffice it to say multiple Gods having dual natures makes no sense if we properly understand the nature of God as the ultimate source of all being.)

[quote] There are examples of continued pagan traditions, however. There are several people that I know who are a part of family traditions. Unfortunately, there's no documentation of how far back these traditions go, since most traditions are passed down orally. While paganism may not have been overtly continuous for the past 2000 years, it did survive. This is a pretty good short summary of paganism into modern times: [url="http://davensjournal.com/index.htm?TOC.htm&1"]http://davensjournal.com/index.htm?TOC.htm&1[/url] I know the author fairly well (members of the same forum) and he is quite possibly the greatest authority of Seax-Wica, second only to Mr. Raymond Buckland himself, he knows his stuff.[/quote]
Yes Wiccans, and other neo-pagans may claim to part of unbroken traditions, but such claims are highly suspect, having very little actual historical documentation to back them up, as you yourself admit.
The Catholic Church, on the other hand, has much documentation (writings of Church Fathers, Papal encyclicals, apostolic letters, and historical documents) showing a clear continuity for two centuries of history. (Not to mention the much older continous Salvation History of the Jewish people chronicled in the Old Testament.)
No other religion in the world has such well-documented continuous history.

The Church has a continuously living tradition and unbroken succession of leaders - it is not some ancient institution that was "re-discovered" and "resurrected" in modern times.

And while indeed paganism has been around for many ages, "pagan" is in reality simply a blanket term for polytheistic or non-Judaeo-Christian religions. It cannot honestly be considered a single faith or religion. Modern paganism is in many ways different in its beliefs from the various ancient pagan religions, which were likewise different from one another.
Ancient Germanic paganism was different from Egyption paganism, which was different from various native American beliefs. They had different beleifs, differnet mythologies, different religious practices, and worshipped different gods.
And neo-pagan cults like Wicca mix and match aspects of different religions to fit personal preferences. For instance, "karma" and reincarnation are Hindu beliefs, and are different from say, the beliefs of Norse pagans.


[quote]I fail to see how this is true. There is a man who claimed to be the son of God, a very cliched idea, since pharohs had been doing that for ages, and then a book compiled by men, and a church founded by a man. People have believed in them for 2000 years, on no basis other than their own faith and the precedent of others before them who said they witnessed the return of Christ.[/quote]
Christ's claims to divinity were not cliched at all in the Jewish religion and tradition, and were actually quite unique and shocking, so much so that He was put to death for the ultimate sin of blasphemy by the Jewish Sanhedrin!

You really need to re-read the Bible, carefully. The Jewish beliefs regarding God and the nature of divinity were [b]radically different[/b] than those of the pagans, and throughout the Bible, God goes out of His way to emphasize this.
They believed in only One True God, who was unapproachably Holy. There were no other gods.
Claiming to be Son of God was a radical claim, and indeed blasphemy to a Jew.
Christ did not claim to be a son of a god, but the Son of the Only Most High God.
And Christ's Resurrection was something unique, and proved His Divinity, and this was how it was regarded by His followers. It was not simply reincarnation (not believed in by the Jews), or some vague spiritual occurence, but a real physical event, which astounded the Apostles, and restored their Faith.

[quote]Wicca also is based on personal faith, but that faith is made extremely clear by simply looking out of a window, where all things exist in a perfect male/female duality, creating a generally genderless world held in balance by certain events that are the result of actions. Which one makes more sense?[/quote]
I'm sorry, but looking out a window does not make Wicca or its teachings plain to me. I would be completely unaware of Wicca's concepts if I had not heard of them from others, and still find them unconvincing, to say the least.
I see a world created by one Almighty Creator.

And Wicca was based largely on 19th-20th century occultism, which contains a lot of really sick, creepy stuff. Why would one wish to follow something inpired by Aleister Crowley?? And I've heard enough witness from people who have gotten involved in the occult and regretted it (experiences with the demonic and stuff - not for the feint of heart!) to never want to touch any of that stuff with a ten-foot poll!

[Lahecil]

[quote]What evidence do you have for karma? As Christians, we beleive in heaven and hell because it is revealed doctrine, and it is fitting with the nature of just God we must answer to. Grace allows us to share in the life of our All-Good and All-Just Creator, while sin (evil) is that which cuts us off from God (damnation).

I am not saying your idea is completely baseless, as it mirrors in a way Christian teaching (though the understanding of the nature of good and evil is different), and appeals to our universal human sense of justice.
However, karma seems just as much an article of faith as the Christian concept of eternal reward and punishment. Do you have anyway of knowing that a good person is rewarded after his death (either in an afterlife or reincarnation), and that an evil person is punished.

It seems that without beleif in an all-good and all-just God, there is no real basis for this - it becomes simply hopeful thinking.[/quote]
Karma's been around for a long time, and it explains the unchangeable situations of some people (fate maybe?). I don't think that karma just gets back to you in your next life though, it can also come back in this lifetime (which, as far as I know, is a common idea among Wiccans). Perhaps it is wishful thinking, but I can't see a world where deeds go unpunished or unrewarded. I can only hope that I'm reincarnated into a better life when I die (I'm shooting for house cat...). If we all didn't have that hope, wouldn't we all be atheists?

[quote]God created the universe and keeps it in existance, but He is a distinct Being from His creation, which is dependent on Him. However, God, being Pure Act, depends on nothing for His Existance.

If God and the universe are the same, how did the universe come to be?
And I'd be careful about asking a spirit for advice! Not all spirits are good. (I know your Wiccan beliefs probably say differently, but think about it - would you ask any human stranger for advice on something you didn't know about, without knowing more on the background and character of this person?)[/quote]
Spirit always was, both in this universe, and any other universe or realms of existence. There has always been Spirit, and always will be, even after our universe comes to an end.

The second half made me smile...of course Wiccans are very discriminate in who they pray to, who they invoke and whatnot! (For the most part, a select few are not so careful.) If I was doing a love spell, the Morrigan would be farthest from my mind...actually I don't think I'd ever want to invoke the Morrigan, unless in the most extreme circumstances and if I was completely sure of my purpose and my own innocence (a Goddess/es of justice is justice for whoever it's dealing with). I also would not pray to Loki, for example, since he is a well-known liar and thief, the same way I wouldn't associate myself with anyone of the same characteristics.

[quote]Again, philosophically speaking, there can only be One True God. (Even the pagan Greek philosophers were able to come to this conclusion through their use of reason.)
This God is Pure Act, Being Himself, and is thus purely simple and perfect, having no "parts" or "duality" of any kind.
(This is a bit much to explain in this limited space, but suffice it to say multiple Gods having dual natures makes no sense if we properly understand the nature of God as the ultimate source of all being.)[/quote]
There is one true Deity, which I have been referring to as Spirit. In order for this one Deity to be true though, wouldn't it have to encompass all aspects, male, female, and inhuman? If that's the case, there would be a duality.

[quote]Yes Wiccans, and other neo-pagans may claim to part of unbroken traditions, but such claims are highly suspect, having very little actual historical documentation to back them up, as you yourself admit.
The Catholic Church, on the other hand, has much documentation (writings of Church Fathers, Papal encyclicals, apostolic letters, and historical documents) showing a clear continuity for two centuries of history. (Not to mention the much older continous Salvation History of the Jewish people chronicled in the Old Testament.)
No other religion in the world has such well-documented continuous history.

The Church has a continuously living tradition and unbroken succession of leaders - it is not some ancient institution that was "re-discovered" and "resurrected" in modern times.

And while indeed paganism has been around for many ages, "pagan" is in reality simply a blanket term for polytheistic or non-Judaeo-Christian religions. It cannot honestly be considered a single faith or religion. Modern paganism is in many ways different in its beliefs from the various ancient pagan religions, which were likewise different from one another.
Ancient Germanic paganism was different from Egyption paganism, which was different from various native American beliefs. They had different beleifs, differnet mythologies, different religious practices, and worshipped different gods.
And neo-pagan cults like Wicca mix and match aspects of different religions to fit personal preferences. For instance, "karma" and reincarnation are Hindu beliefs, and are different from say, the beliefs of Norse pagans.[/quote]
It's true that Christianity has been around in an unbroken chain for a VERY long time...but not always. Many aspects of modern paganism and Wicca are present on the earliest cave walls. If paintings from a primary source don't count as documentation, then you're right.

Wiccans and most neo-pagans combine many aspects of different religions for a few reasons. One is that many themes are present no matter where in the world you get your mythology from, some are just more comfortable with certain myths than others. (For example, I usually prefer a Celtic pantheon, but when divining, I pray to a Norse pantheon...it's just the way I prefer it.) Also, some things are just found true, irregardless of where they originated, such as karma.

[quote]Christ's claims to divinity were not cliched at all in the Jewish religion and tradition, and were actually quite unique and shocking, so much so that He was put to death for the ultimate sin of blasphemy by the Jewish Sanhedrin!

You really need to re-read the Bible, carefully. The Jewish beliefs regarding God and the nature of divinity were radically different than those of the pagans, and throughout the Bible, God goes out of His way to emphasize this.
They believed in only One True God, who was unapproachably Holy. There were no other gods.
Claiming to be Son of God was a radical claim, and indeed blasphemy to a Jew.
Christ did not claim to be a son of a god, but the Son of the Only Most High God.
And Christ's Resurrection was something unique, and proved His Divinity, and this was how it was regarded by His followers. It was not simply reincarnation (not believed in by the Jews), or some vague spiritual occurence, but a real physical event, which astounded the Apostles, and restored their Faith.[/quote]
I was rash in saying that, and I'm sorry. All I meant though, is that Christ was not the first to be Divine and resurrected in terms of mythology. Osiris has the same myth tied to him. Christ was certainly the first of many things in his own right.

[quote]I'm sorry, but looking out a window does not make Wicca or its teachings plain to me. I would be completely unaware of Wicca's concepts if I had not heard of them from others, and still find them unconvincing, to say the least.
I see a world created by one Almighty Creator.[/quote]
I could talk about this for days...All animals and many plants come in male and female dualities, as does Spirit. A flower sprouts, grows, blooms, drops its seeds, withers, dies, and then in spring another flower returns, the same as before yet different. I don't know of any way to make this more clear, other than saying that the tenets of Wicca are present in natural life.

[quote]And Wicca was based largely on 19th-20th century occultism, which contains a lot of really sick, creepy stuff. Why would one wish to follow something inpired by Aleister Crowley?? And I've heard enough witness from people who have gotten involved in the occult and regretted it (experiences with the demonic and stuff - not for the feint of heart!) to never want to touch any of that stuff with a ten-foot poll![/quote]
For the record--Crowley was a freak. He and Gardner never met until close to the end of Crowley's life, and even then their friendship was formal. I can't stomach the vast majority of Crowley's writings...especially his beliefs regarding women. Anyone who says the Church places women on a low pedestal had better take a look at Mr. Crowley...He was a great poet, but a jaded and foolish philosopher.

I've done "magical" things I've regretted, such as accidently emptied my wallet by not being specific in a prosperity spell (I asked for monetary prosperity, but not that it would stay!). Things like that obviously don't scare me away from my path. You have to use your common sense when dealing with many things, it's unwise to do what you don't completely understand no matter what it is you're dealing with.

[Socrates]

[quote name='Lahecil' post='1139325' date='Dec 10 2006, 06:00 PM']
Karma's been around for a long time, and it explains the unchangeable situations of some people (fate maybe?). I don't think that karma just gets back to you in your next life though, it can also come back in this lifetime (which, as far as I know, is a common idea among Wiccans). Perhaps it is wishful thinking, but I can't see a world where deeds go unpunished or unrewarded. I can only hope that I'm reincarnated into a better life when I die (I'm shooting for house cat...). If we all didn't have that hope, wouldn't we all be atheists?[/quote]
Yes, the idea of "karma" has been around for a very long time, and is part of Hinduism, which has led to one of the most repressive systems in human civilization. India's rigid Hindu caste system has resulted in classes of "untouchables" who are treated with less respect than animals, and who have no way of escaping their wretched condition, because Hinduism, with its doctrines of reincarnation and karma, holds that they are bound by bad karma to be born and die in that "unchangable situation."
Karma is not something native to ancient English or Druid paganism, but was taken from the modern Wiccans from Hinduism.

And I'm not sure exactly what you are saying karma explains. Bad luck? Good luck?
What about people whose luck changes? What about people who live morally good lives yet live lives of hardship and trouble, or wicked people who seem to be quite well-off in life?

Of course there is the idea of justice in the next life, but what I am saying is not that there is no justice in the afterlife, but that this only really makes sense under the rule of an Almighty, All-just God.

[quote]Spirit always was, both in this universe, and any other universe or realms of existence. There has always been Spirit, and always will be, even after our universe comes to an end.[/quote]
Not really different than Christian belief there, except that we believe in One True God who is All-good, and the Source of all existance.
A multitude of contradictory gods or spirits, or a god who is made of many contradictory "parts" would not fit the definition of God.

Of course there are many created spirits who are not God - but who choose to love or reject God by their free will - known as angels and devils. They are not God or "aspects" of God, but creatures like ourselves, though closer to God in their purely spiritual nature.

[quote]The second half made me smile...of course Wiccans are very discriminate in who they pray to, who they invoke and whatnot! (For the most part, a select few are not so careful.) If I was doing a love spell, the Morrigan would be farthest from my mind...actually I don't think I'd ever want to invoke the Morrigan, unless in the most extreme circumstances and if I was completely sure of my purpose and my own innocence (a Goddess/es of justice is justice for whoever it's dealing with). I also would not pray to Loki, for example, since he is a well-known liar and thief, the same way I wouldn't associate myself with anyone of the same characteristics.[/quote]
Why even worship beings that would be duplicitous or deceptive? It should be clear that such creatures (presuming they exist) are not the same as the True God, nor allied with Him. (And how can a liar and a thief possibly be an "aspect" of the True God???)

And I find this genuinely interesting (ties in with one of my original questions in this thread) - Why are you so skeptical about the religion of Christ, and the Bible (which, for whatever else you might say about it, has far more historically verifyable documentation than any pagan myths), yet swallow unskeptically the tales of Loki, and the Morrigan (whatever that is), and other such beings?

And are [i]all[/i] pagan myths and gods/goddesses true, or only those with the "imprimatur" of Mr. Gardner, or whomever the local Wiccan authority happens to be?

[quote]There is one true Deity, which I have been referring to as Spirit. In order for this one Deity to be true though, wouldn't it have to encompass all aspects, male, female, and inhuman? If that's the case, there would be a duality.[/quote]
No. God [i]created[/i] male and female, humans and animals, etc. God is utterly perfect pure Being Himself, and while all creation reflects the goodness of God - God Himself has no parts - this is like saying God would have to "encompass" tall and short, thin and fat, blonde, and brunette, etc. Such attributes and distinctions properly belong to His creatures.

And Christianity does indeed put importance on male and female - but there are not dual male and female "parts" of God, anymore than He has black and white parts or big and little parts.

[quote]It's true that Christianity has been around in an unbroken chain for a VERY long time...but not always. Many aspects of modern paganism and Wicca are present on the earliest cave walls. If paintings from a primary source don't count as documentation, then you're right.[/quote]
Christ in His incarnated human form has only been around for little over 2000 years, but His Father is eternal, and the salvation history of man from the beginning is recorded in the Bible.

Prehistoric cave paintings are not specifically "Wiccan." They are all pictures of animals, hunters, and such. Experts do not agree on what exactly their significance and meaning is, and there are a number of theories. Sure, Wiccans and other neo-pagans can claim they represent their own beliefs, or make Wiccan "interpretations' of the images, but there is absolutely no solid evidence whatsoever of unbroken succession of beliefs from cave-man days to Gerald Gardner and company. Nor is there anything other than word-of-mouth claims by modern Wiccans to show that Wiccans possess the true knowledge of the cave-painters intentions. It's simply trusting in the words of modern-day self-proclaimed neo-pagans.

[quote]Wiccans and most neo-pagans combine many aspects of different religions for a few reasons. One is that many themes are present no matter where in the world you get your mythology from, some are just more comfortable with certain myths than others. (For example, I usually prefer a Celtic pantheon, but when divining, I pray to a Norse pantheon...it's just the way I prefer it.) Also, some things are just found true, irregardless of where they originated, such as karma.[/quote]
While it is true there are similarities in themes of religions around the world, on closer inspection it becomes clear that different religions, including different pagan religions, contradict each other, and their gods are not always compatible.

Are all pagan mythologies equally true, or are some false?
And how do we know, other than each "neo-pagan's" personal opinion?

[quote]I was rash in saying that, and I'm sorry. All I meant though, is that Christ was not the first to be Divine and resurrected in terms of mythology. Osiris has the same myth tied to him. Christ was certainly the first of many things in his own right.[/quote]
This is actually a fairly common claim made against Christianity, by both atheists who believe in no religion, and by New-Age "syncretists" ("all religions are really one.")

There is a huge difference though between the myth of Osiris and other pagan deities, and the Gospel of Christ.
The Gospels are recorded by eye-witnesses and friends to either Jesus Christ, or those who knew him directly, recorded as taking place in a very specific (and recent) place and time - Bethlehem in the reign of Caesar Augustus, etc., etc., and contain many points of specific evidence to convince those who would not beleive. They concern a specific Man in a specific time in history, concerning events and places with with which the original hearers of the Gospel would be familiar.

The pagan myths take place in a vague, distant mythological time, with no talk of eye-witnesses or recent history.

In reality the whole nature of the Gospels and pagan myths are as different as night and day.

Good short article on this topic: [url="http://www.catholic.com/thisrock/2006/0605fea2.asp"]"Jesus and the Pagan Gods"[/url]

[quote]I could talk about this for days...All animals and many plants come in male and female dualities, as does Spirit. A flower sprouts, grows, blooms, drops its seeds, withers, dies, and then in spring another flower returns, the same as before yet different. I don't know of any way to make this more clear, other than saying that the tenets of Wicca are present in natural life.[/quote]
The Christian, as I pointed out earlier, believes in male and female - "Male and female He created them." That much is obvious in the natural biological world. And male and female reflect the love of God.

However, this does not prove a seperate "God and Goddess" nor a "bisexual" God with different "parts."

[quote]For the record--Crowley was a freak. He and Gardner never met until close to the end of Crowley's life, and even then their friendship was formal. I can't stomach the vast majority of Crowley's writings...especially his beliefs regarding women. Anyone who says the Church places women on a low pedestal had better take a look at Mr. Crowley...He was a great poet, but a jaded and foolish philosopher.[/quote]Fair enough.

[quote]I've done "magical" things I've regretted, such as accidently emptied my wallet by not being specific in a prosperity spell (I asked for monetary prosperity, but not that it would stay!). Things like that obviously don't scare me away from my path. You have to use your common sense when dealing with many things, it's unwise to do what you don't completely understand no matter what it is you're dealing with.[/quote]
What kind of deity relies on precisely coordinated magic spells and rituals to give us what we need or desire???

Christians believe God is all-good, all-wise, and all-just, and is a loving Father who knows what is in the hearts of His children before we ask, and will give us what we ask, if it is indeed in our best interest (which often it is not - "the Foolishness of God is wiser than the wisdom of man!")
God is not some slave or fool who can be forced or duped into carrying out our wishes by spell-casting!

A "god" who can be manipulated by men to do our bidding, and would rob us because we weren't precise enough in our "spell-casting" is hardly much of a god at all!
First off, such a being would be more a genie or slave to our own desires, rather than a True God.
Secondly, he/she/it would either be too stupid to know what we really want or need, or pointlessly cruel - stealing from us because we didn't get the spell right! (Neither would qualify as a god worth worshipping!)

All-in-all this "god" sounds more like a vending machine which takes our money and gives us the wrong thing if we mistakenly punch the wrong buttons, rather than a loving, All-Good, Almighty God and Father!

Might want to think about that.
Which makes more sense? Which would you rather follow?

Edited December 12, 2006 by Socrates

[Lahecil]

[quote name='Socrates' date='Dec 11 2006, 11:01 PM' post='1140126']
Yes, the idea of "karma" has been around for a very long time, and is part of Hinduism, which has led to one of the most repressive systems in human civilization. India's rigid Hindu caste system has resulted in classes of "untouchables" who are treated with less respect than animals, and who have no way of escaping their wretched condition, because Hinduism, with its doctrines of reincarnation and karma, holds that they are bound by bad karma to be born and die in that "unchangable situation."
Karma is not something native to ancient English or Druid paganism, but was taken from the modern Wiccans from Hinduism.

And I'm not sure exactly what you are saying karma explains. Bad luck? Good luck?
What about people whose luck changes? What about people who live morally good lives yet live lives of hardship and trouble, or wicked people who seem to be quite well-off in life?

Of course there is the idea of justice in the next life, but what I am saying is not that there is no justice in the afterlife, but that this only really makes sense under the rule of an Almighty, All-just God.[/quote]
I've never agreed with the Hindu application of karma. We all experience everything at one point or another, whether it's poverty or riches. It's certainly not enjoyable, but we all learn by experiencing, and learning is how we attain our highest possible conciousness spiritually. It's hard to account for why good things happen to bad people and vice versa, other than the learning experience, which is for our overall benefit. As out of place as it may seem, God works in mysterious ways.


[quote]Not really different than Christian belief there, except that we believe in One True God who is All-good, and the Source of all existance.
A multitude of contradictory gods or spirits, or a god who is made of many contradictory "parts" would not fit the definition of God.

Of course there are many created spirits who are not God - but who choose to love or reject God by their free will - known as angels and devils. They are not God or "aspects" of God, but creatures like ourselves, though closer to God in their purely spiritual nature.[/quote]
Life and circumstances are often contradictory. The seemingly contradictory pieces of the greater Spirit make up the whole. You can't have black without white, basically.

[quote]Why even worship beings that would be duplicitous or deceptive? It should be clear that such creatures (presuming they exist) are not the same as the True God, nor allied with Him. (And how can a liar and a thief possibly be an "aspect" of the True God???)[/quote]
Oh goodness, don't worship them and invite them into your life. If their presence must be there, you'll know! But to ignore the existence of a "lying" god (or a goddess of destruction or any other "icky" things) is to ignore half the story. If lies didn't exist, truth wouldn't exist. If destruction didn't exist, there could be no creation.

[quote]And I find this genuinely interesting (ties in with one of my original questions in this thread) - Why are you so skeptical about the religion of Christ, and the Bible (which, for whatever else you might say about it, has far more historically verifyable documentation than any pagan myths), yet swallow unskeptically the tales of Loki, and the Morrigan (whatever that is), and other such beings?[/quote]
I don't believe that God is "more" in one person than another. We are all on the same spiritual level, and so all humans are either divine in their own right, or not spiritual at all. The latter can be ruled out easily by personal experience by anyone, such as experiences in prayer, meditation, etc. That means that the first must be true, so why is Jesus the son of God and I am not a daughter of a Goddess? (Since where there are fathers there are mothers.)

Just so you know, the Morrigan is a Celtic war Goddess, represented as a crow and sometimes seen as a triple Goddess, since her sisters often joined in the fray during battles. She's sometimes called the Phantom Queen.

[quote]And are [i]all[/i] pagan myths and gods/goddesses true, or only those with the "imprimatur" of Mr. Gardner, or whomever the local Wiccan authority happens to be?[/quote]
I wish I knew. As for now I can only trust my instincts and the instincts of my ancestors.

[quote]No. God [i]created[/i] male and female, humans and animals, etc. God is utterly perfect pure Being Himself, and while all creation reflects the goodness of God - God Himself has no parts - this is like saying God would have to "encompass" tall and short, thin and fat, blonde, and brunette, etc. Such attributes and distinctions properly belong to His creatures.

And Christianity does indeed put importance on male and female - but there are not dual male and female "parts" of God, anymore than He has black and white parts or big and little parts.[/quote]
Could you please clarify this, since it's been explained to me that God created man in His image according to Christianity.

[quote]Christ in His incarnated human form has only been around for little over 2000 years, but His Father is eternal, and the salvation history of man from the beginning is recorded in the Bible.

Prehistoric cave paintings are not specifically "Wiccan." They are all pictures of animals, hunters, and such. Experts do not agree on what exactly their significance and meaning is, and there are a number of theories. Sure, Wiccans and other neo-pagans can claim they represent their own beliefs, or make Wiccan "interpretations' of the images, but there is absolutely no solid evidence whatsoever of unbroken succession of beliefs from cave-man days to Gerald Gardner and company. Nor is there anything other than word-of-mouth claims by modern Wiccans to show that Wiccans possess the true knowledge of the cave-painters intentions. It's simply trusting in the words of modern-day self-proclaimed neo-pagans.

While it is true there are similarities in themes of religions around the world, on closer inspection it becomes clear that different religions, including different pagan religions, contradict each other, and their gods are not always compatible.

Are all pagan mythologies equally true, or are some false?
And how do we know, other than each "neo-pagan's" personal opinion?[/quote
Of course they aren't since Wicca sprouted in the 50's, but it is true that the [i]apparent[/i] theology represented in the paintings matches the current beliefs in Wicca. I think I addressed the other two questions already, but let me know if you want me to elaborate.

[quote]This is actually a fairly common claim made against Christianity, by both atheists who believe in no religion, and by New-Age "syncretists" ("all religions are really one.")
There is a huge difference though between the myth of Osiris and other pagan deities, and the Gospel of Christ.
The Gospels are recorded by eye-witnesses and friends to either Jesus Christ, or those who knew him directly, recorded as taking place in a very specific (and recent) place and time - Bethlehem in the reign of Caesar Augustus, etc., etc., and contain many points of specific evidence to convince those who would not beleive. They concern a specific Man in a specific time in history, concerning events and places with with which the original hearers of the Gospel would be familiar.

The pagan myths take place in a vague, distant mythological time, with no talk of eye-witnesses or recent history.

In reality the whole nature of the Gospels and pagan myths are as different as night and day.

Good short article on this topic: [url="http://www.catholic.com/thisrock/2006/0605fea2.asp"]"Jesus and the Pagan Gods"[/url][/quote]
I don't see how this makes Christianity more true, since it is entirely possible that it is complete fiction written by humans, which is also possible of the pagan myths.

[quote]What kind of deity relies on precisely coordinated magic spells and rituals to give us what we need or desire???

Christians believe God is all-good, all-wise, and all-just, and is a loving Father who knows what is in the hearts of His children before we ask, and will give us what we ask, if it is indeed in our best interest (which often it is not - "the Foolishness of God is wiser than the wisdom of man!")
God is not some slave or fool who can be forced or duped into carrying out our wishes by spell-casting!

A "god" who can be manipulated by men to do our bidding, and would rob us because we weren't precise enough in our "spell-casting" is hardly much of a god at all!
First off, such a being would be more a genie or slave to our own desires, rather than a True God.
Secondly, he/she/it would either be too stupid to know what we really want or need, or pointlessly cruel - stealing from us because we didn't get the spell right! (Neither would qualify as a god worth worshipping!)

All-in-all this "god" sounds more like a vending machine which takes our money and gives us the wrong thing if we mistakenly punch the wrong buttons, rather than a loving, All-Good, Almighty God and Father!

Might want to think about that.
Which makes more sense? Which would you rather follow?
[/quote]
What kind of God would baby us and not allow us to learn and expand to our greatest limits?

Precise spells are not necessary, since intent is what matters, but you do have to be careful what you wish for. Truth be told, in my example, I didn't NEED the money, I just wanted some cash to burn. Was my intent very pure? No. Now I know I shouldn't pray for every little whim, and should learn to take care of myself. Instead of doing a spell and asking (not forcing or tricking) the Lord and Lady for some money, I would have been better off applying for a job somewhere.

It's the wishes of Spirit that truly make the spell work. If it not working is better for me, then by not allowing the spell to work I'm being aided by Spirit. If I had a true need for something, like if my family was about to declare bankruptcy, the prosperity spell would have been more effective.

[Socrates]

[quote name='Lahecil' post='1140748' date='Dec 12 2006, 07:45 PM']
I've never agreed with the Hindu application of karma. We all experience everything at one point or another, whether it's poverty or riches. It's certainly not enjoyable, but we all learn by experiencing, and learning is how we attain our highest possible conciousness spiritually. It's hard to account for why good things happen to bad people and vice versa, other than the learning experience, which is for our overall benefit. As out of place as it may seem, God works in mysterious ways.[/quote]
Here you seem to be agreeing with me. Earlier you appeared to be arguing that karma, not God, was repsonsible for justice. And the "karma" is a Hindu word - that's where we westerners got the whole concept from, so it's odd to suggest that the Hindus "misapplied" this concept.
Yes, God does work in mysterious ways.

[quote]Life and circumstances are often contradictory. The seemingly contradictory pieces of the greater Spirit make up the whole. You can't have black without white, basically.[/quote]
Pure spirit, by its very nature, does not have parts or divisions of any kind. Only matter can have different parts or divisions.

[quote]Oh goodness, don't worship them and invite them into your life. If their presence must be there, you'll know! But to ignore the existence of a "lying" god (or a goddess of destruction or any other "icky" things) is to ignore half the story. [/quote]
Yes indeed, evil spirits do truly exist. They are angels created good by God who rejected Him by their own free will. And you are right that we should never worship them or invite them into our life in any way.
But the fallen angels are also expert deceivers and liars. They will not necessarily appear "icky," but can appear alluring - the better to deceive man. The devil often appears as an angel of light. (2 Cor. 11:14)

[quote] If lies didn't exist, truth wouldn't exist. If destruction didn't exist, there could be no creation.[/quote]
Absolute nonsense. Completely irrational. One can speak something 100% true without him or someone else telling a single lie about the matter. The truth of a statement is in no way dependent upon someone lying. If I were to make a true statement, would someone have to contradict it with a lie for my statement to be true?
That is one of the most absurd statements I have heard anyone make.
Take a course in basic logic.

And saying creation depends on destruction is equally absurd.
God created all things out of nothing, and nothing was destroyed in that process. (Only God can create in the pure sense of the word.)

[quote]I don't believe that God is "more" in one person than another. We are all on the same spiritual level, and so all humans are either divine in their own right, or not spiritual at all. The latter can be ruled out easily by personal experience by anyone, such as experiences in prayer, meditation, etc. That means that the first must be true, so why is Jesus the son of God and I am not a daughter of a Goddess? (Since where there are fathers there are mothers.)[/quote]
God created everyone and keeps everyone in existance as the source of their being, even Satan. We are all in that sense "sons and daughters of God." However Christ actually IS God (the Second Person of the Most Holy Trinity become incarnate as Man).
(Don't have time to go into the whole mystery of the Trinity now.) But to say that Christ is no more or less divine that any other human being is to misunderstand the entirety of Christian teaching.

Jesus Christ's Father was God and His mother was the Blessed Virgin Mary. The Incarnation is a great miracle and mystery of God - His plan for the Salvation of man.
(That's why Christmas is such a big deal!) As far as I know, a "goddess" did not give birth to you.
Obviously, you do not believe in the Incarnation and Divinity of Christ, but as Christians beleive it, it is indeed unique and miraculous.
I would not be Christian if I believed Jesus Christ is essentially no different from you and me.
And I sure as heck know [i]I'm[/i] not God nor divine! As a theology professor of mine once pointed out, there is no lower form of idolotry than self-worship, or worship of mankind!

[quote]Just so you know, the Morrigan is a Celtic war Goddess, represented as a crow and sometimes seen as a triple Goddess, since her sisters often joined in the fray during battles. She's sometimes called the Phantom Queen.[/quote]
Groovy.

[quote]I wish I knew. As for now I can only trust my instincts and the instincts of my ancestors.[/quote]
"Instincts" is a weak basis for basing truth on. What about the "instincts" of those who are convicted Christians? (Or atheists or anything else for that matter?)

What about your Christian ancestors? (Being a white girl, I'm sure your ancestors have been Christian for many generations, before you got into this Wiccan stuff). And the beliefs of ancient European pagans differed in significant ways from modern "Wicca" - a religion which is younger than my mom.

And why were for the most part pagans all over Europe willing to abandon their paganism for Christ? If paganism was so wonderful, why did it die out wherever the Gospel of Christ was preached? (And using honest history, you can't blame this purely on military superiority and strength of arms. The mighty Roman Empire was originally pagan, and persecuted Christians, yet Christianity prevailed in the end.)

And if "the instincts of my pagan ancestors" are to be trusted regarding which gods and beliefs to follow? Those of my Norse and Teutonic ancestors? My Celtic ancestors? My Cherokee Indian ancestors? Those different peoples did not all follow the same gods, and same forms of worship. (And most pagans practiced human sacrifice to a greater or lesser extent - should that pagan practice be revived?)

[quote]Could you please clarify this, since it's been explained to me that God created man in His image according to Christianity.[/quote]
That means that man is like God in that he has intellect and free will. (As do the angels, who are also created in his Image.) This does not mean God (as God) has a human body (before being incarnated as Christ, in which He took on our human nature.)

[quote]I don't see how this makes Christianity more true, since it is entirely possible that it is complete fiction written by humans, which is also possible of the pagan myths.[/quote]
The evidence certainly stacks up on Christianity's side.

If Christ's divinity and Resurrection were a lie or a fraud, then many who were alive at the time willingly faced persecuation and death for the sake of perpetuating a hoax! It would seem at least someone would waver, or someone would come clean with the hoax, yet this never happened.

Here's an excellent article regarding Christ's Resurrection, and the improbability of it being a fabrication or a delusion:
[url="http://www.catholic.com/thisrock/1991/9108dd.asp"]EXPLAINING AWAY JESUS’ RESURRECTION [/url]

[quote]What kind of God would baby us and not allow us to learn and expand to our greatest limits?

Precise spells are not necessary, since intent is what matters, but you do have to be careful what you wish for. Truth be told, in my example, I didn't NEED the money, I just wanted some cash to burn. Was my intent very pure? No. Now I know I shouldn't pray for every little whim, and should learn to take care of myself. Instead of doing a spell and asking (not forcing or tricking) the Lord and Lady for some money, I would have been better off applying for a job somewhere.

It's the wishes of Spirit that truly make the spell work. If it not working is better for me, then by not allowing the spell to work I'm being aided by Spirit. If I had a true need for something, like if my family was about to declare bankruptcy, the prosperity spell would have been more effective.[/quote]
God does not "baby us", but a true God is not bound by spells and other such foolishness. Magic and divination are condemened by God in no uncertain terms. Christ tells us to pray to God as a son to a father. If intent is what matters, what is the point of spell-casting? Growing closer in one's relationship with God is what should matter, not perfecting one's "spell-casting" skills.

I'd recommend seriously reading up on the apologetics recources linke to on Phatmass, and keeping an open mind. The site I've linked to also has great articles and recources.
You've thus far failed to give any real reasons why Wicca should be followed over Christ, other than your own personal feelings.

[Allassiel]

1) Do you believe in objective truth?  yes
2) Do you believe your Wiccan or neo-pagan beliefs are objectively true? yes
3) Do you believe in God? Many gods/goddesses? Many Gods and Goddesses, I am polytheistic, believing in the Greek Gods under the Horned God and Moon Goddess
4) Why do you think Wicca or other neo-paganism is more worthy of belief than the Christian Faith or other "mainstream" religions? I don't necessarily think one religion is more worthy than another. I think they all have things in common and similarities, but the open beliefs, and the closeness to nature is what drew me closer to my chosen religion of Wicca as well as my deep Celtic heritage.  Each person is free to have their own belief, as I am to have mine.

On 11/29/2006 at 9:05 PM, 123 said:

new paganism is just as bad as old paganism. They all are against God in a way.

I should hate to think what someone might think of me then as I am a Wiccan Priestess married to a God fearing Baptist

Edited November 14, 2019 by Allassiel