Christianity Vs. Wicca And Neo-paganism

[Socrates]

This thread is in response to Lahecil's invitation in another thread regarding discussion of Wicca. I'd actually thought about starting such a thread some time ago, but got sidetracked, and Lahecil was off the boards for some time.
Lahecil and any other Wiccans or other neo-pagans are welcome to join this discussion/debate.

I am not any sort of expert in Wicca or other neo-paganism, so I thought I would start this off by having the Wiccans/neo-pagans explain in a nutshell what they believe and why.

I'll begin with some questions:

1) Do you believe in objective truth?
2) Do you believe your Wiccan or neo-pagan beliefs are objectively true?
3) Do you believe in God? Many gods/goddesses?
4) Why do you think Wicca or other neo-paganism is more worthy of belief than the Christian Faith or other "mainstream" religions?

[123]

new paganism is just as bad as old paganism. They all are against God in a way.

[Winchester]

I'd lay odds on Christianity because of simple numbers and the prevalence of pacifists among neo-pagans.

[Lahecil]

1) Do you believe in objective truth?
It varies from person to person. Neopagans follow EXTREMELY personalized faiths, often eclectic, so there's no way to pin down exactly what an entire religion believeves. I use neopagan and pagan as an umbrella term to include the new pagan religions, such as Wicca. Personally, I do.

2) Do you believe your Wiccan or neo-pagan beliefs are objectively true?
Yes.

3) Do you believe in God? Many gods/goddesses?
As I said, neopagans have a huge amount of leeway regarding personal beliefs. Many Wiccans (such as myself) believe that there is the "Spirit", which is androgynous, and then there is the God and Goddess which are two parts of the Spirit, who embody characteristics above and beyond sexual organs. The names of different Gods and Goddesses throughout mythology are faces of the divine duo, such as Hermes, Hecate, Wodin, Freya, etc. Just to illustrate the diversity in this area, Druids believe each deity is a separate and unique entity, and not part of a collective Spirit. And even more unique, there are, indeed, atheist Wiccans.

4) Why do you think Wicca or other neo-paganism is more worthy of belief than the Christian Faith or other "mainstream" religions?
No. Most Wiccans (and if they don't they are encouraged by the community to) support people to personally seek their faiths, as they best judge. For example, Wicca may simply not be the religion that would satisfy your spiritual appetite, but Catholicism clearly does. For me, I was extremely dissatisfied with Christianity and cannot accept the divinity of Christ, but found that Wicca is a part of me and my beliefs, and even as a young girl I had unwittingly taken on many of the beliefs that are an accepted part of Wicca. (When I was 3 I insisted that God was Married to Mother Nature! )

In regards to paganism being against God, assuming you mean the Christian God, it is certainly not because we are "out to get" anyone. Just looking for our own unique path.

[Socrates]

[quote name='Lahecil' post='1132086' date='Nov 30 2006, 04:47 PM']
1) Do you believe in objective truth?
It varies from person to person. Neopagans follow EXTREMELY personalized faiths, often eclectic, so there's no way to pin down exactly what an entire religion believeves. I use neopagan and pagan as an umbrella term to include the new pagan religions, such as Wicca. Personally, I do.[/quote]
First I just thought I'd note that all I'm asking for is an answer as to what you yourself believe. I am quite aware that different neo-pagans have all sorts of differing beliefs. That, I think is the great appeal of neo-paganism and Wicca - it's essentially do-it-yourself, make-up-your-own-rules "religion." I'm sure if I ask these questions to 100 neo-pagans, I'd get 100 different answers. However, this is also one of its great philosophical weaknesses.

[quote]2) Do you believe your Wiccan or neo-pagan beliefs are objectively true?
Yes.[/quote]
Since you believe in objective truth and that your personal Wiccan beliefs are objectively true, that means they are true for everybody, not just in your own head.
Yet even most other Wiccans would probably not agree with you on every one of your spiritual beliefs.
Why should your particular version of Wicca be trusted above all others? Is Lahecil the ultimate human authority on religious matters?

[quote]3) Do you believe in God? Many gods/goddesses?
As I said, neopagans have a huge amount of leeway regarding personal beliefs. Many Wiccans (such as myself) believe that there is the "Spirit", which is androgynous, and then there is the God and Goddess which are two parts of the Spirit, who embody characteristics above and beyond sexual organs. The names of different Gods and Goddesses throughout mythology are faces of the divine duo, such as Hermes, Hecate, Wodin, Freya, etc. Just to illustrate the diversity in this area, Druids believe each deity is a separate and unique entity, and not part of a collective Spirit. And even more unique, there are, indeed, atheist Wiccans.[/quote]
We believe that God is Perfect Pure Act, and does not have a body. A pure spirit cannot be male, female, or androgynous.
So basically you believe in two more-or-less equal gods/goddess. Philosophically, there cannot be two or more Gods, as pure Act, a purely perfect Being cannot be duplicated. (This is different than the Catholic understanding of the Trinity, but I'm probably jumping ahead of myself here).

And what makes you believe that the many different gods and goddesses of mythology are different "faces" of these two beings?
There seems little evidence for that. Around the world there are many, very different "gods" and mythologies, many of which contradict one another.
One god demands human sacrifice, another opposes it. One god teaches chastity, another. One god may strictly forbid worship of another god. Many pagan gods act more like human beings, (or superheros) warring against, lusting after, killing, raping, and tricking other gods and humans, as well as performing more noble deeds.
If we are to take mythology and world religions on face value, what we have is not many faces of two gods, but a house divided against itself.

The very diversity of neo-pagan beliefs on this issue indicates a basic problem and confusion.

And, do you also consider the Judeao-Christian God of the Bible a "face" of your god, or do you consider Him a false god, having less validity than say Hermes, or Freya?

[quote]4) Why do you think Wicca or other neo-paganism is more worthy of belief than the Christian Faith or other "mainstream" religions?
No. Most Wiccans (and if they don't they are encouraged by the community to) support people to personally seek their faiths, as they best judge. For example, Wicca may simply not be the religion that would satisfy your spiritual appetite, but Catholicism clearly does. For me, I was extremely dissatisfied with Christianity and cannot accept the divinity of Christ, but found that Wicca is a part of me and my beliefs, and even as a young girl I had unwittingly taken on many of the beliefs that are an accepted part of Wicca. (When I was 3 I insisted that God was Married to Mother Nature! )[/quote]
This seems to contradict your earlier stated belief in objective truth.

Here you talk of religion as though it is simply a matter of personal taste and preference. ("She likes cherry, but I've always preferred chocolate.")
If religion is about truth at all, a religion must be objectively true or false, and this cannot be reduced to mere personal feeling and preference. This is clear when we see how beliefs of different religions contradict one another. Either one is true and the others false, or none is true (atheism, agnosticism).

[Winchester]

My wife was wicca when I met her. She's a cantor at our church, now.

[mulls]

[quote name='Winchester' post='1131962' date='Nov 30 2006, 02:44 PM']
I'd lay odds on Christianity because of simple numbers and the prevalence of pacifists among neo-pagans.
[/quote]

[Lahecil]

I believe that my beliefs are correct. (I use the word belief a lot, huh? lol) However, I also acknowledge that I (unfortunately) do not know everything, and could be wrong, since I am human. So, who am I to push my beliefs on other people if I can't necessarily prove them. That is one of the key points of belief after all, not having to prove it.

I wouldn't say that Wicca is entirely do-it-yourself, though there is a lot of room for personalization. There are quite a few key elements that are accepted by the entire community (and any who don't believe it aren't fully Wiccan, though could incorporate some Wiccan beliefs into their fath). For example, the well-known Wiccan Rede, which has been published in countless versions, this is one:
[quote]Bide the Wiccan laws ye must in perfect love an perfect trust.

Live an let live -- fairly take an fairly give.

Cast the Circle thrice about to keep all evil spirits out.

To bind the spell every time, let the spell be spake in rhyme.

Soft of eye an light of touch -- speak little, listen much.

Deosil go by the waxing Moon -- sing an dance the Wiccan rune.

Widdershins go when the Moon doth wane, an the Werewolf howls by the dread Wolfsbane.

When the Lady's Moon is new, kiss the hand to her times two.

When the Moon rides at her peak, then your heart's desire seek.

Heed the Northwind's mighty gale -- lock the door and drop the sail.

When the wind comes from the South, love will kiss thee on the mouth.

When the wind blows from the East, expect the new and set the feast.

When the West wind blows o'er thee, departed spirits restless be.

Nine woods in the Cauldron go -- burn them quick an burn them slow.

Elder be ye Lady's tree -- burn it not or cursed ye'll be.

When the Wheel begins to turn -- let the Beltane fires burn.

When the Wheel has turned a Yule, light the Log an let Pan rule.

Heed ye flower, bush an tree - by the Lady blessed be.

Where the rippling waters go, cast a stone an truth ye'll know.

When ye have need, hearken not to other's greed.

With the fool no season spend or be counted as his friend.

Merry meet an merry part -- bright the cheeks an warm the heart.

Mind the Threefold Law ye should -- three times bad an three times good.

When misfortune is enow, wear the blue star on thy brow.

True in love ever be unless thy lover's false to thee.

Eight words the Wiccan Rede fulfill -- an it harm none, do what ye will.[/quote]
That last line is the big part. There's also the celebration of certain rites and Sabbats, and the use of certain tools, such as the athame, when they are available. (I, for example, cannot go out and buy one on a whim, but they are used in most circles.) Circles are also used in rituals and, usually, spellcasting, except when one is experienced enough to go without.

About the God/s/dess/desses, I don't believe in good and bad. There are more favorable aspects, as well as a "dark" side to everyone and everything, even the Gods, it's this balance that keeps the world in harmony (though obviously there are times when the harmony is disrupted, perhaps through the actions of humans). As a collective Being, however, they are perfect. Also, male and female aren't strictly gender terms. Generally, the male aspect is the physical, projective, energetic, Solar aspect, and the female aspect is the emotional, receptive, calm, Lunar aspect. Humans have a mix of these aspects, though sometimes one is more apparent than the other, because we have both the God and Goddess within us, regardless of our genders. Spirit has all of these aspects, and therefore neutrality.

I don't think that the Judeo-Christian God is any less valid than the gods I believe in. I believe that he is several aspects of the collective Being, or, perhaps the collective Being itself, though some aspects are ignored or left out for whatever purpose.

[Socrates]

[quote name='Lahecil' post='1133226' date='Dec 1 2006, 06:46 PM']
I believe that my beliefs are correct. (I use the word belief a lot, huh? lol) However, I also acknowledge that I (unfortunately) do not know everything, and could be wrong, since I am human. So, who am I to push my beliefs on other people if I can't necessarily prove them. That is one of the key points of belief after all, not having to prove it.[/quote]
Any belief worthy of belief should be able to be rationally defended.

[quote]I wouldn't say that Wicca is entirely do-it-yourself, though there is a lot of room for personalization. There are quite a few key elements that are accepted by the entire community (and any who don't believe it aren't fully Wiccan, though could incorporate some Wiccan beliefs into their fath). For example, the well-known Wiccan Rede, which has been published in countless versions, this is one:

That last line is the big part. There's also the celebration of certain rites and Sabbats, and the use of certain tools, such as the athame, when they are available. (I, for example, cannot go out and buy one on a whim, but they are used in most circles.) Circles are also used in rituals and, usually, spellcasting, except when one is experienced enough to go without.[/quote]
Very quaint, but you still haven't explained why any of this should be followed rather than Christianity.

Why is Gerald Gardner's 1950s concoction (or any of its many present-day variations)more worthy of belief than anyone else?


[quote]About the God/s/dess/desses, I don't believe in good and bad. There are more favorable aspects, as well as a "dark" side to everyone and everything, even the Gods, it's this balance that keeps the world in harmony (though obviously there are times when the harmony is disrupted, perhaps through the actions of humans). As a collective Being, however, they are perfect. Also, male and female aren't strictly gender terms. Generally, the male aspect is the physical, projective, energetic, Solar aspect, and the female aspect is the emotional, receptive, calm, Lunar aspect. Humans have a mix of these aspects, though sometimes one is more apparent than the other, because we have both the God and Goddess within us, regardless of our genders. Spirit has all of these aspects, and therefore neutrality.[/quote]
Pure Act cannot have any kinds of parts or contradictions.

And no good or bad seems pretty nihilistic.
The Christian definition of evil as the privation of a due good in something makes much more sense.

If there is no good or bad, then it ultimately makes no difference whether I help feed poor children, or kill and eat them.

Yes, there is your "harm no one" rule, but you have no philosophical basis for it. And that is a clearly modern invention of paganism - many of the old pagan gods were quite bloodthirsty, often demanding human sacrifice.

[quote]I don't think that the Judeo-Christian God is any less valid than the gods I believe in. I believe that he is several aspects of the collective Being, or, perhaps the collective Being itself, though some aspects are ignored or left out for whatever purpose.[/quote]
But obviously, the Judeao-Christian God is blatantly opposed to all of the pagan Gods. Read the Bible, and you will see how any sort of pagan worship or sorcery is repeatedly and strongly condemned. And many of the rules of the God of the Bible are quite different from those of most pagan gods.

Obviously our God is not the same as your pagan "collective being," or if He is, that would make Him a raving schizophrenic, and hardly much of a God at all!
("A house divided against itself will not stand.")

[Lahecil]

[quote name='Socrates' post='1133438' date='Dec 1 2006, 11:02 PM']
Any belief worthy of belief should be able to be rationally defended.
Very quaint, but you still haven't explained why any of this should be followed rather than Christianity.[/quote]
I suppose we differ here. Belief and total faith does not require proof. I could say that the philosophy I follow speaks to the deepest and most natural aspects of life, and was present long before Christianity came around, which, in my opinion, is repressive sexually (which I consider divine when under the correct circumstances, as it is after all the creation of life) and more concerned with hierarchies and power than peaceful coexistence with other humans and the earth. I understand that there are a million rebuttals to this, but there is no doubt that wars have been waged in the name of Christianity. Now, of course there are pagans in the military today (http://www.witchvox.com/_x.html?c=military) but they have their own reasons for fighting in the name of protecting themselves, their families, and their country.

[quote]Why is Gerald Gardner's 1950s concoction (or any of its many present-day variations)more worthy of belief than anyone else?[/quote]
It's not more worthy because of any historical background (every religion was new at one point) or prophetic wisdom (how many have proven to be con-artists?). I believe that Wicca is true because there is a need for humans to live peacefully with one another and to tread lightly on the earth, our mother.

[quote]Pure Act cannot have any kinds of parts or contradictions.

And no good or bad seems pretty nihilistic.
The Christian definition of evil as the privation of a due good in something makes much more sense.

If there is no good or bad, then it ultimately makes no difference whether I help feed poor children, or kill and eat them.

Yes, there is your "harm no one" rule, but you have no philosophical basis for it. And that is a clearly modern invention of paganism - many of the old pagan gods were quite bloodthirsty, often demanding human sacrifice.[/quote]
I'm a pantheist, so everything is sacred. No humans are perfectly "good" or "evil", but do have a lighter side and a darker side--a reflection of the Divinity. It does, however, make a difference whether you help or hurt others, but harm none is not a necessarily modern invention. It's the same idea as karma and the old adage "What goes around comes around." You get back what you send out in due course. Doing negative (or as some will call it, evil) things will create negative circumstances and events for the perpetrator, whether immediately or in consecutive lives. Why would you do things that will hurt you in the end?

[quote]But obviously, the Judeao-Christian God is blatantly opposed to all of the pagan Gods. Read the Bible, and you will see how any sort of pagan worship or sorcery is repeatedly and strongly condemned. And many of the rules of the God of the Bible are quite different from those of most pagan gods.

Obviously our God is not the same as your pagan "collective being," or if He is, that would make Him a raving schizophrenic, and hardly much of a God at all!
("A house divided against itself will not stand.")
[/quote]
I have read the Bible three times, so I'm at least a little familiar with what it literally says, even if I don't understand all the concepts (which is why I'm here ). I've heard several arguments about mistranslations in the Bible, about how it doesn't actually say "witchcraft" but another word that means roughly "negative sorcery." I don't have much authority on Hebrew though. Irregardless of that, it does say no to paganism. Is it possible that some parts of what the Judeo-Christian God says have been left out? Yes. Many things are possible. I'm not a theologian, but I think that there is more validity to Christianity than there would be if I'm right and everyone else is wrong.

[Seven77]

[quote name='Lahecil' post='1133620' date='Dec 2 2006, 12:52 PM']
Belief and total faith does not require proof. I could say that the philosophy I follow speaks to the deepest and most natural aspects of life, and was present long before Christianity came around, which, in my opinion, is repressive sexually (which I consider divine when under the correct circumstances, as it is after all the creation of life) and more concerned with hierarchies and power than peaceful coexistence with other humans and the earth. I understand that there are a million rebuttals to this, but there is no doubt that wars have been waged in the name of Christianity. Now, of course there are pagans in the military today (http://www.witchvox.com/_x.html?c=military) but they have their own reasons for fighting in the name of protecting themselves, their families, and their country.[/quote]

I believe that you are a virtuous and noble person (and wish to be) from what you write...

A few things I'd like to share:

1. Christianity---Catholicism specifically, actually considers sexuality to be sacred and properly understood is not repressed.

2. Peaceful coexistence with other humans is intrinsic to our faith. The earth--God's creation must respected.

3. Wars like the Crusades were originally intended to protect pilgrims to Palestine and to protect holy shrines...but went awry later.

All these points were lived and taught by Pope John Paul II. He also asked for forgiveness for the sins of Christians.

Peace be to you sister.

[Winchester]

This thread, upon my skimming, seems remarkably civil. That's all I have to say, right now.

[Lahecil]

Seven77, thank you for sharing that. Still, I haven't found the tenets I believe in Christianity the way I have found them in Wicca. I strongly desire a return to nature, but I cannot find that chance in Christianity so far. I'm very happy that such a beautiful religion has brought all of you here so much joy. Light and Love.

Winchester--Thank you, I try to be civil and keep my teenage hormones at bay.

[Socrates]

[quote name='Lahecil' post='1133620' date='Dec 2 2006, 12:52 PM']
I suppose we differ here. Belief and total faith does not require proof. I could say that the philosophy I follow speaks to the deepest and most natural aspects of life, and was present long before Christianity came around, which, in my opinion, is repressive sexually (which I consider divine when under the correct circumstances, as it is after all the creation of life) and more concerned with hierarchies and power than peaceful coexistence with other humans and the earth. I understand that there are a million rebuttals to this, but there is no doubt that wars have been waged in the name of Christianity. Now, of course there are pagans in the military today (http://www.witchvox.com/_x.html?c=military) but they have their own reasons for fighting in the name of protecting themselves, their families, and their country.
It's not more worthy because of any historical background (every religion was new at one point) or prophetic wisdom (how many have proven to be con-artists?). I believe that Wicca is true because there is a need for humans to live peacefully with one another and to tread lightly on the earth, our mother. [/quote]
Well, it looks like you've partially provided a refutation of your own argument here.
True, Christians have waged war, but sometimes war is justified. And self-proclaimed Christians have not always acted in a Christian manner. The Crusades have already been debated to death elsewhere on these boards, but those were actually started because of Muslim Turkish agression.

And your mention of Wiccans and other pagans in the (all-volunteer) army today, I think refutes any claims that of Wicca being inherently pacifistic.

And (contrary to some demonstrably false neo-pagan propaganda) violence and warfare did not come into world because of Christianity (in fact, many of the early Christians were pacifists, refusing to serve in the Roman army), nor was the pagan world, in pre-Christian Europe nor elsewhere, without war and violence. History shows that war and violence have always been part of human nature, and in the pagan world often took more extreme forms than found in the Christian world, having no checks from the Church.
(For example, the pagan Aztecs waged perpetual "flower wars" with other tribes, with the sole purpose of gaining prisioners for use as human sacrifice to their bloodthirsty gods, for whom they provided thousands of sacrifices a year.)
To claim that paganism tends toward peace is to be ignorant of history.

In fact, in the Middle Ages, the Church often worked (often unsuccesfully) to curb the violence between nominally Christian nobles.

As for Wicca being true "because there is a need for humans to live peacefully with one another and to tread lightly on the earth, our mother," this really tells nothing about Wicca's truth.

Some of the biggest pushers for peace on earth lately have been Catholic popes, and Pope John Paul II has repeatedly spoken out stroingly on the need to protect the environment.

Christians don't worship the earth, but we do believe we are stewards of it. It is like God loans us a nice home which is entrusted to our care, we should take care of it and use it repsonsibly, rather than trashing it and making it unfit for habitation. However, it would be improper to worship the earth.

And if I were to establish some nutty cult (which, say, proclaimed myself Messiah, and worshipped space aliens or whatever), and included in it a call for world peace and protecting the earth, this would not make my cult true or worthy of belief.

[quote]I'm a pantheist, so everything is sacred. No humans are perfectly "good" or "evil", but do have a lighter side and a darker side--a reflection of the Divinity. It does, however, make a difference whether you help or hurt others, but harm none is not a necessarily modern invention. It's the same idea as karma and the old adage "What goes around comes around." You get back what you send out in due course. Doing negative (or as some will call it, evil) things will create negative circumstances and events for the perpetrator, whether immediately or in consecutive lives. Why would you do things that will hurt you in the end?
I have read the Bible three times, so I'm at least a little familiar with what it literally says, even if I don't understand all the concepts (which is why I'm here ). I've heard several arguments about mistranslations in the Bible, about how it doesn't actually say "witchcraft" but another word that means roughly "negative sorcery." I don't have much authority on Hebrew though. Irregardless of that, it does say no to paganism. Is it possible that some parts of what the Judeo-Christian God says have been left out? Yes. Many things are possible. I'm not a theologian, but I think that there is more validity to Christianity than there would be if I'm right and everyone else is wrong.[/quote]
Actually, the Bible makes absolutely no distinction between "harmful" and "helpful" magic. [i]All[/i] sorcery, witchcraft, and worshipping of pagan gods is expressedly forbidden. There is no "white magic" spoken of in the Bible.
The First Commandment (regarded as the most important) states: "I am the Lord thy God. Thou shalt have no false Gods before me." (Exodus 20:2-3)

As for "things being left out", there is no evidence for this whatever, so speculation is idle. And the Lord would not contradict Himself.

Whether you believe in the Bible and the Christian Faith or not, no one can honestly say that paganism and Christianity are reconcilable, nor that they worship the same God. Both, therefore, cannot be true.

[Lahecil]

[quote]Well, it looks like you've partially provided a refutation of your own argument here.
True, Christians have waged war, but sometimes war is justified. And self-proclaimed Christians have not always acted in a Christian manner. The Crusades have already been debated to death elsewhere on these boards, but those were actually started because of Muslim Turkish agression.

And your mention of Wiccans and other pagans in the (all-volunteer) army today, I think refutes any claims that of Wicca being inherently pacifistic.

And (contrary to some demonstrably false neo-pagan propaganda) violence and warfare did not come into world because of Christianity (in fact, many of the early Christians were pacifists, refusing to serve in the Roman army), nor was the pagan world, in pre-Christian Europe nor elsewhere, without war and violence. History shows that war and violence have always been part of human nature, and in the pagan world often took more extreme forms than found in the Christian world, having no checks from the Church.
(For example, the pagan Aztecs waged perpetual "flower wars" with other tribes, with the sole purpose of gaining prisioners for use as human sacrifice to their bloodthirsty gods, for whom they provided thousands of sacrifices a year.)
To claim that paganism tends toward peace is to be ignorant of history.

In fact, in the Middle Ages, the Church often worked (often unsuccesfully) to curb the violence between nominally Christian nobles.

As for Wicca being true "because there is a need for humans to live peacefully with one another and to tread lightly on the earth, our mother," this really tells nothing about Wicca's truth.

Some of the biggest pushers for peace on earth lately have been Catholic popes, and Pope John Paul II has repeatedly spoken out stroingly on the need to protect the environment.

Christians don't worship the earth, but we do believe we are stewards of it. It is like God loans us a nice home which is entrusted to our care, we should take care of it and use it repsonsibly, rather than trashing it and making it unfit for habitation. However, it would be improper to worship the earth.

And if I were to establish some nutty cult (which, say, proclaimed myself Messiah, and worshipped space aliens or whatever), and included in it a call for world peace and protecting the earth, this would not make my cult true or worthy of belief.[/quote]
From what I understand, most Wiccan soldiers make their argument by pointing out that Harming none includes not harming the self. By enlisting they are protecting their own lives and their families, which is fairly reasonable, even if it involves harming others at some point. Everyone has the right to live (even opposing armies), but everyone also has the right to protect themselves.

Of course there was war before Christianity (which is sad no matter the reason or whether it's pre or post the birth of Christ). I wish all the reasons were soley for the sake of protecting one's own, but unfortunately, every age and every faith has its own corruption and discrepancies.

A reason I believe Wicca IS true, is because of the belief that we are a part of the earth, not simply its inhabitants. I don't believe that one is complete without the other.

[quote]Actually, the Bible makes absolutely no distinction between "harmful" and "helpful" magic. All sorcery, witchcraft, and worshipping of pagan gods is expressedly forbidden. There is no "white magic" spoken of in the Bible.
The First Commandment (regarded as the most important) states: "I am the Lord thy God. Thou shalt have no false Gods before me." (Exodus 20:2-3)

As for "things being left out", there is no evidence for this whatever, so speculation is idle. And the Lord would not contradict Himself.

Whether you believe in the Bible and the Christian Faith or not, no one can honestly say that paganism and Christianity are reconcilable, nor that they worship the same God. Both, therefore, cannot be true.[/quote]
I agree that Christianity and paganism are irreconcilable (though there are Christian Wiccans there are many arguments both for and against this). All I mean is that there is a chance that Christianity is not the true faith. I have to take the "We'll all find out when we die" stance here.

Argument against Christian Wicca:
[url="http://www.geocities.com/dreamtoucher/christ.html"]http://www.geocities.com/dreamtoucher/christ.html[/url]
Arguments FOR Christian Wicca:
[url="http://www.witchvox.com/va/dt_va.html?a=usva&c=words&id=7541"]http://www.witchvox.com/va/dt_va.html?a=us...rds&id=7541[/url]

Edited December 4, 2006 by Lahecil