Predestination

[hyperdulia again]

am i the only person who sees dangerously racist potential in the proceeding?

[Don John of Austria]

What are you speaking of Hyper, I just see a dangerously Heretical area in the proceeding.,

[Donna]

MXC and Don John, I agree .

John: I hope to continue this.

Yes, Israel as a nation rejected Jesus as the Messiah. Specifically, the "hierarchy" if you will, the religious leaders. But there are reasons men of all nations do not believe, and it's not because God gave a selective distribution of grace that would enable men to believe in God.

That's sick what you propose, that God would not distribute sufficient grace to enable men to believe in Him.

St. Peter in Acts, the sermon he gave upon the descent of the Holy Ghost said to save themselves from the perverse generation, the pious Jews from diverse nations should be baptized. A person with original sin (the un-baptized) has grave obstacles to receiving grace. Yet even so, we are wired to seek God, we are wired to believe. That is common sense. That we would be wired to seek the one who made us! In the natural order the baby just born seeks for the one who carried him and from whom he "came". Everything in that baby seeks its mother, her bosom to be nursed at.

Back to "receiving". Do you hold that faith itself is a gift? Catholics do. That is, that we can't of ourselves "receive the faith." The reason can, the intellect can, but the gift of the faith is supernatural. This gift finds entrance when a soul is of good will.

Or, when the soul is willing to be of good will.

In 2 Thes. Paul says those who are seduced by the antichrist and perish do so "because they receive not the love of the truth that they may be saved. Therefore, God will send them the operation of error, to believe a lie."

But something first has to be given,extended, offered, distributed, in order for men to receive it.. or to not receive it. To reject it.

Look, the bad-willed Jews (it coulda been anyone, bad-willed Norwegians, ok? but it was Israel) were spiritual harlots. And stiff-necked. And we Gentiles, especially now as apostate nations, or Masonic republics, may quite well not fare any better, even with the Sacraments, the Scriptures, the miracles, the Holy Shroud, the proofs of Catholicism. If God cut off Israel, St. Paul warned, the grafted branch (Gentiles and Catholics specifically) will be as well if we go a-harlotting, too.

Why is this issue of limited atonement so important to you?

Edited August 5, 2003 by Donna

[cmotherofpirl]

Isn't the predestination of a given few Calvanistic?

[mustbenothing]

(hyperdulia again) am i the only person who sees dangerously racist potential in the proceeding?

(Me) I don't :-/ I think that the fact of God's mercy apart from the basis of race should spur us to the universal acceptance of races.

(Donna) John: I hope to continue this.

(Me) Sounds good

(Donna) Yes, Israel as a nation rejected Jesus as the Messiah. Specifically, the "hierarchy" if you will, the religious leaders. But there are reasons men of all nations do not believe, and it's not because God gave a selective distribution of grace that would enable men to believe in God.

That's sick what you propose, that God would not distribute sufficient grace to enable men to believe in Him.

(Me) It's what Jesus teaches in John 6.

John 6:36-37, 44

36 But I said to you that you have seen me and yet do not believe.

37 All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out.

44 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.

(Donna) St. Peter in Acts, the sermon he gave upon the descent of the Holy Ghost said to save themselves from the perverse generation, the pious Jews from diverse nations should be baptized. A person with original sin (the un-baptized) has grave obstacles to receiving grace. Yet even so, we are wired to seek God, we are wired to believe. That is common sense.

(Me) But Paul claims that our sin leads us the other direction entirely, so that we will not turn to God apart from His grace:

Romans 3:10-12

10 as it is written:

"None is righteous, no, not one;

11 no one understands;

no one seeks for God.

12 All have turned aside; together they have become worthless;

no one does good,

not even one."

2 Corinthians 4:3-4

3 And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled only to those who are perishing.

4 In their case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelievers, to keep them from seeing the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.

(Donna) That we would be wired to seek the one who made us! In the natural order the baby just born seeks for the one who carried him and from whom he "came". Everything in that baby seeks its mother, her bosom to be nursed at.

(Me) David disagreed.

Psalm 51:5

Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity,

and in sin did my mother conceive me.

(Donna) Back to "receiving". Do you hold that faith itself is a gift? Catholics do. That is, that we can't of ourselves "receive the faith." The reason can, the intellect can, but the gift of the faith is supernatural. This gift finds entrance when a soul is of good will.

Or, when the soul is willing to be of good will.

(Me) Paul taught otherwise:

Romans 9:16

So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy.

2 Corinthians 4:6

For God, who said, "Let light shine out of darkness," has shone in our hearts to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.

Ephesians 2:4-6

4 But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us,

5 even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ— by grace you have been saved—

6 and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus,

(Donna) In 2 Thes. Paul says those who are seduced by the antichrist and perish do so "because they receive not the love of the truth that they may be saved. Therefore, God will send them the operation of error, to believe a lie."

(Me) But notice why Paul says that they believe in 2 Thessalonians:

2 Thessalonians 2:13-14

13 But we ought always to give thanks to God for you, brothers beloved by the Lord, because God chose you as the first fruits to be saved, through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth.

14 To this he called you through our gospel, so that you may obtain the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.

(Donna) Look, the bad-willed Jews (it coulda been anyone, bad-willed Norwegians, ok? but it was Israel) were spiritual harlots. And stiff-necked. And we Gentiles, especially now as apostate nations, or Masonic republics, may quite well not fare any better, even with the Sacraments, the Scriptures, the miracles, the Holy Shroud, the proofs of Catholicism. If God cut off Israel, St. Paul warned, the grafted branch (Gentiles and Catholics specifically) will be as well if we go a-harlotting, too.

(Me) Yes, but He will not cut off the spiritual Israel -- that is, the elect. Paul explains that Israel has received many blessings (like the sacraments, the Scriptures, the miracles, the Holy Shroud, the proofs of Cahtolicism, and so on), and the nation of Israel was cut off. However, God's spiritual Israel -- God's elect -- cannot be cut off.

Romans 9:4-6

4 They are Israelites, and to them belong the adoption, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the worship, and the promises.

5 To them belong the patriarchs, and from their race, according to the flesh, is the Christ who is God over all, blessed forever. Amen.

6 But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel,

(Donna) Why is this issue of limited atonement so important to you?

(Me) Because it preaches the power of Christ's blood. It teaches that we stand on a redemption that is accomplished. It teaches that Christ's blood secured redemption for His sheep. It does not teach that Christ's blood was unable to save anyone on its own. It does not teach that Christ purchased the possibility of salvation. It teaches that Christ purchased the actuality of salvation. It teaches the very Gospel itself -- that God saves sinners. Limited Atonement is the foundational hope for the believer's consolation in light of his sins, and the foundation of confidence in evangelism.

(cmotherofpirl) Isn't the predestination of a given few Calvanistic?

(Me) Yes. I am a die-hard Calvinist. It ("the predestination of a given few") was also taught by Acquinas and Augustine, and, I would contend, Jesus, Paul, Peter, and John.

Edited August 5, 2003 by mustbenothing

[cmotherofpirl]

God, because He is outside of time, knows the destination of every soul. He has foreknowledge.

Its not that He picks and chooses, its that He knows our response to His grace.

God offers his grace freely to all.

Every soul has the possibility to choose God in one way or anyone.

But because of free will, we can choose hell. We can reject his initial offering of grace, or accept it and later lose it thru deliberate mortal sin.

[Cure of Ars]

Scripture says that we have free will. Too bad Luther took books out of the Bible.

When God in the beginning, created man he made him subject to his own free choice. (Sirach 15:14)

Edited August 6, 2003 by Cure of Ars

[mustbenothing]

If it is based on man's response -- that is, a deed of man coming from his will -- then how can Paul make the following claim?

Romans 9:16

So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy.

[Cure of Ars]

If it is based on man's response -- that is, a deed of man coming from his will -- then how can Paul make the following claim?

Romans 9:16

So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy.

Because we can not will ourselves to salvation apart from God's mercy and grace.

[mustbenothing]

(Cure of Ars) When God in the beginning, created man he made him subject to his own free choice. (Sirach 15:14)

(Me) To me, this only continues to prove that the Apocryphal literature contradict Scripture. But we already know this with Sirach:

Sirach 3:3, 30

Whoso honoureth his father maketh an atonement for his sins...Water will quench a flaming fire; and alms maketh an atonement for sin

And yet, Scripture teaches that atonement requires blood:

Leviticus 17:11

For the life of the flesh is in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls: for it is the blood that maketh an atonement for the soul.

[mustbenothing]

(Cure of Ars) Because we can not will ourselves to salvation apart from God's mercy and grace.

(Me) This does not adequately deal with Paul's statement, because he is explaining why some Jews are not Christians (Romans 9:1-5). Paul reconciles this fact by saying that God's choice to save individuals is unconditional and in no way based on man's will. However, if it is based on God's foreknowledge of how man will respond to God's grace, then Paul has not solved the problem with Romans 9:16.

[cmotherofpirl]

(Cure of Ars) When God in the beginning, created man he made him subject to his own free choice. (Sirach 15:14)

(Me) To me, this only continues to prove that the Apocryphal literature contradict Scripture.  But we already know this with Sirach:

Sirach 3:3, 30

Whoso honoureth his father maketh an atonement for his sins...Water will quench a flaming fire; and alms maketh an atonement for sin

And yet, Scripture teaches that atonement requires blood:

Leviticus 17:11

For the life of the flesh is in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls: for it is the blood that maketh an atonement for the soul.

SCripture also says I require mercy not sacrifice.

SCripture says a lot of things. THats why we have a Church to interpret it.

[God Conquers]

Why be good, go to any Church or attempt any kind of holiness, study scripture, etc. if the end result is alreay decided?

If you believe you're already going to heaven, for sure, and that God decided it an eternity ago why do anything? If I'm one of the elect I could just choose to die right now and it would make no difference.

If we have no part in our Salvation then why bother? And why do we need Christ if God decided whether or not we were save at the beginning of "time"?

[Guest StPiusX]

John 6:36-37, 44

36 But I said to you that you have seen me and yet do not believe.

37 All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out.

44 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.

"and I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to myself." (John 12:32)

Romans 3:10-12

10 as it is written:

"None is righteous, no, not one;

11 no one understands;

no one seeks for God.

12 All have turned aside; together they have become worthless;

no one does good,

not even one."

"The LORD looks down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there are any that act wisely, that seek after God. They have all gone astray, they are all alike corrupt; there is none that does good, no, not one... There they shall be in great terror, for God is with the generation of the righteous. You would confound the plans of the poor, but the LORD is his refuge." (Ps. 14:2-3, 5-6 - cited by St. Paul in the Romans passage above)

Psalm 51:5

Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity,

and in sin did my mother conceive me.

"Ever since the creation of the world his invisible nature, namely, his eternal power and deity, has been clearly perceived in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse... When Gentiles who have not the law do by nature what the law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the law. They show that what the law requires is written on their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness and their conflicting thoughts accuse or perhaps excuse them" (Romans 1:20, 2:14-15)

Romans 9:16

So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy.

"Therefore say to them, Thus says the LORD of hosts: Return to me, says the LORD of hosts, and I will return to you, says the LORD of hosts." (Zech. 1:3)

[cmotherofpirl]

Welcome to phatmass.

THere is a check in board on the open mic. Stop in and introduce yourself.