Under God? Really?

[Good Friday]

Many Christians say that America is founded on Christian principles, but even though I'm a Christian I contend that it wasn't, primarily because of the First Amendment and because most of the founding fathers were not Christians. They were Deists and Freemasons.

I'll post some quotes from the founding fathers and official U.S. documents, and you tell me if you think America was really founded on Christian principles:

The First Amendment

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion...

Treaty of Tripoli, Article 11

The government of the United States is not in any sense founded on the Christian religion.

From a letter to Thomas Jefferson from John Adams

I almost shudder at the thought of alluding to the most fatal example of the abuses of grief which the history of mankind has preserved -- the Cross.  Consider what calamities that engine of grief has produced!

From a letter to John Adams from Thomas Jefferson

The day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the Supreme Being as his father, in the womb of a virgin, will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter.

Memorial and Remonstrance Against Religious Assessments

Religious bondage shackles and debilitates the mind and unfits it for every noble enterprise...During almost fifteen centuries has the legal establishment of Christianity been on trial.  What have been its fruits?  More or less, in all places, pride and indolence in the clergy; ignorance and servility in laity; in both, superstition, bigotry, and persecution.

There's more, but I don't have time to post it now. Maybe I'll post it later.

[Kilroy the Ninja]

Friday, you are absolutely correct on this one. Amazing that JFK ever got elected. Wonder what purpose his election served for the Masons...

[Winchester]

The laws of the US originally had much in common with Christianity (as is unavoidable in the Western world. Today's self-styled pagans resemble Christians much more than pagans in their morality, for example), but that is diminishing over time.

I believe the US was never intended as any but a nominally Christian nation. The claims to Christianity are much the same as in Freemasonry: there to salve the consciences of those who actually care about religion.

[Winchester]

JFK was a sell-out. That's how he got elected. In spite of the good things he did, he was overall a traitor, and his speech explaining his intentions will forever be used by those who would sublimate their Catholicism to their Americanism.

[MC Just]

Hmmmm.. I've never read those quotes before, thanks. Most of the founders of Usa were in fact Freemasons. We Catholics gotta overthrow the evil government and make this a real Chrisitian nation. Not a nation of Pagans and Heretics...

[God Conquers]

Peace to THAT! The laws of any civil society can not help but follow the laws of Christian morality. We were designed so that, by following Christ perfectly, we could create a perfect society. Alas, we do not.

[mark4IHM]

Our country was founded on Protestant and Masonic principles. Since these principles are not founded on truth, like Roman Catholicism, degeneration is unavoidable, even if many Americans insist on calling degeneration progress.

The only way America will become a Catholic country, aside from a miracle from God and America's patroness, Our Lady of Guadalupe, is for our bishops to renounce their de facto membership in the Democratic party (yes, Friday, I'm serious), and any other political party, for that matter. This would likely result in martyrdom, at least for some of them (and us).

How pleasant it is to agree with Good Friday and Winchester on the same thread - and the rest of you, of course. B)

[God Conquers]

A book was published recently by an American Jewish Sociology professer. It was caled "Sliding Towards Gommorrah" and came to the conclusion that North American culture was sliding towards it's own destruction because of crumbling morality. He said there was no way to stop this... except one. If everyone became a practicing Roman Catholic, our civilization would be saved. The Catholic Church, he claimed, was the only one which had the moral fortitude, heirarchy and means to rectify the wrongs of our culture.

[Cure of Ars]

I think that they saw things different back then. They were trying to protect religion from government. They didn’t want the government to tell religion what to do. I’m in total agreement with this. But, flip mode, today people see it as a way to protect government from religion. I personally don’t want a theocracy. But I do want a government that will listen to and follow religion on moral issues. Historically this foundation has been based on Judeo-Christian morals. Relativism is the order of the day, it is the new foundation and this is scary.

[ironmonk]

It's a shame that some on this board study history like ian paisley studies the Catechism of the Catholic Church.

It is the godless and those that are angry with God because of something bad that happened in their lives that has spread such a lie.

The treaty of Tripoli remained on the books for eight years, at which time the treaty was renegotiated, and Article 11 was dropped.

The moment the idea is admitted into society that property is not as sacred as the laws of God, and that there is not a force of law and public justice to protect it, anarchy and tyranny commence. If 'Thou shalt not covet' and 'Thou shalt not steal' were not commandments of Heaven, they must be made inviolable precepts in every society before it can be civilized or made free.

- John Adams, A Defense of the American Constitutions, 1787

[L]iberty must at all hazards be supported. We have a right to it, derived from our Maker. But if we had not, our fathers have earned and bought it for us, at the expense of their ease, their estates, their pleasure, and their blood.

- John Adams, A Dissertation on the Canon and Feudal Law, 1765

Let the pulpit resound with the doctrine and sentiments of religious liberty. Let us hear of the dignity of man's nature, and the noble rank he holds among the works of God... Let it be known that British liberties are not the grants of princes and parliaments.

- John Adams, Dissertation on the Canon and Feudal Law, 1765

Liberty cannot be preserved without a general knowledge among the people, who have a right, from the frame of their nature, to knowledge, as their great Creator, who does nothing in vain, has given them understandings, and a desire to know; but besides this, they have a right, an indisputable, unalienable, indefeasible, divine right to that most dreaded and envied kind of knowledge; I mean, of the characters and conduct of their rulers.

- John Adams, Dissertation on the Canon and Feudal Law, 1765

If men through fear, fraud or mistake, should in terms renounce and give up any essential natural right, the eternal law of reason and the great end of society, would absolutely vacate such renunciation; the right to freedom being the gift of God Almighty, it is not in the power of Man to alienate this gift, and voluntarily become a slave.

- John Adams, Rights of the Colonists, 1772

Our unalterable resolution would be to be free. They have attempted to subdue us by force, but God be praised! in vain. Their arts may be more dangerous then their arms. Let us then renounce all treaty with them upon any score but that of total separation, and under God trust our cause to our swords.

- Samuel Adams, letter to James Warren, April 16, 1776

When in the Course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the Powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which they Law of Nature and Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.

- Declaration of Independence

With hearts fortified with these animating reflections, we most solemnly, before God and the world, declare, that, exerting the utmost energy of those powers, which our beneficent Creator hath graciously bestowed upon us, the arms we have compelled by our enemies to assume, we will, in defiance of every hazard, with unabating firmness and perseverance employ for the preservation of our liberties; being with one mind resolved to die freemen rather than to live as slaves.

- John Dickinson and Thomas Jefferson, Declaration of the Cause and Necessity of Taking up Arms, July 6, 1775

Is life so dear or peace so sweet as to be purchased at the price of chains and slavery? Forbid it, Almighty God. I know not what course others may take, but as for me, give me liberty or give me death!

- Patrick Henry, speech in the Virginia Convention, 1775

It is too probable that no plan we propose will be adopted. Perhaps another dreadful conflict is to be sustained. If, to please the people, we offer what we ourselves disprove, how can we afterwards defend our work? Let us raise a standard to which the wise and the honest can repair. The event is in the hand of God.

- George Washington, as quoted by Gouverneur Morris in Farrand's Records of the Federal Convention of 1787

[W]e are confirmed in the opinion, that the present age would be deficient in their duty to God, their posterity and themselves, if they do not establish an American republic. This is the only form of government we wish to see established; for we can never be willingly subject to any other King than He who, being possessed of infinite wisdom, goodness and rectitude, is alone fit to possess unlimited power.

- Instructions of Malden, Massachusettes for a Declaration of Independence, May 27, 1776

Whereas it is the duty of all nations to acknowledge the providence of Almighty God, to obey His will, to be grateful for His benefits, and humbly to implore His protection and favor; and Whereas both Houses of Congress have, by their joint committee, requested me "to recommend to the people of the United States a day of public thanksgiving and prayer, to be observed by acknowledging with grateful hearts the many and signal favors of Almighty God, especially by affording them an opportunity peaceably to establish a form of government for their safety and happiness:"

- George Washington

September 17th, 1796 "It is impossible to rightly govern the world without God and the Bible"

His Prayer At Valley Forge "Almighty and eternal Lord God, the great Creator of heaven and earth, and the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ; look down from heaven in pity and compassion upon me Thy servant, who humbly prostrates myself before Thee."

- George Washington

CONGRESSIONAL OATH OF OFFICE: "I do solemnly swear that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; that I take this obligation freely, without any mental reservation or purpose of evasion: and that I will well and faithfully discharge the duties of the office on which I am about to enter. So help me, God."

1st Amendment: Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.

This was because of the way England forced whatever denomination the king was onto the people. This in no way shape or form means take God out. All who think that have not studied the history... Just like an anti-Catholic, taking things out of context. And frankly, the majority of the US is sick of people doing that, but we don't make a stink about it, because it is a free country. If people want to be ignorant, let them.

Each looked for an easier triumph, and a result less fundamental and astounding. Both read the same Bible, and pray to the same God; and each invokes His aid against the other. It may seem strange that any men should dare to ask a just God's assistance in wringing their bread from the sweat of other men's faces; but let us judge not that we be not judged. The prayers of both could not be answered; that of neither has been answered fully. The Almighty has His own purposes. "Woe unto the world because of offences! for it must needs be that offences come; but woe to that man by whom the offence cometh!" If we shall suppose that American Slavery is one of those offences which, in the providence of God, must needs come, but which, having continued through His appointed time, He now wills to remove, and that He gives to both North and South, this terrible war, as the woe due to those by whom the offence came, shall we discern therein any departure from those divine attributes which the believers in a Living God always ascribe to Him? Fondly do we hope -- fervently do we pray -- that this mighty scourge of war may speedily pass away. Yet, if God wills that it continue, until all the wealth piled by the bond-man's two hundred and fifty years of unrequited toil shall be sunk, and until every drop of blood drawn with the lash, shall be paid by another drawn with the sword, as was said f[our] three thousand years ago, so still it must be said "the judgments of the Lord, are true and righteous altogether"

-President Abraham Lincoln's Second Inaugural Address (1865)

"The God who gave us life gave us liberty at the same time: the hand of force may destroy, but cannot disjoin them." - Thomas Jefferson

First, you're all gung ho about being Catholic.

then, you pick the inquisition, to use against the Church because you want a particular lifestyle.... because you don't want to face the truth.

Now, you've gone so far as to deny recent facts in history.

Please meditate on these verses... and think of what soil do you want to be? I don't want to know, and I'm not going to debate the topic further, you are wrong.

St. Matt 13:3

And he spoke to them at length in parables, saying: "A sower went out to sow.

4

And as he sowed, some seed fell on the path, and birds came and ate it up.

5 Some fell on rocky ground, where it had little soil. It sprang up at once because the soil was not deep,

6 and when the sun rose it was scorched, and it withered for lack of roots.

7 Some seed fell among thorns, and the thorns grew up and choked it.

8 But some seed fell on rich soil, and produced fruit, a hundred or sixty or thirtyfold.

9 Whoever has ears ought to hear."

10 The disciples approached him and said, "Why do you speak to them in parables?"

11 He said to them in reply, "Because knowledge of the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven has been granted to you, but to them it has not been granted.

12 To anyone who has, more will be given and he will grow rich; from anyone who has not, even what he has will be taken away.

13 This is why I speak to them in parables, because 'they look but do not see and hear but do not listen or understand.'

14 Isaiah's prophecy is fulfilled in them, which says: 'You shall indeed hear but not understand you shall indeed look but never see.

15 Gross is the heart of this people, they will hardly hear with their ears, they have closed their eyes, lest they see with their eyes and hear with their ears and understand with their heart and be converted, and I heal them.'

16 "But blessed are your eyes, because they see, and your ears, because they hear.

17 Amen, I say to you, many prophets and righteous people longed to see what you see but did not see it, and to hear what you hear but did not hear it.

18 "Hear then the parable of the sower.

19 The seed sown on the path is the one who hears the word of the kingdom without understanding it, and the evil one comes and steals away what was sown in his heart.

20 The seed sown on rocky ground is the one who hears the word and receives it at once with joy.

21 But he has no root and lasts only for a time. When some tribulation or persecution comes because of the word, he immediately falls away.

22 The seed sown among thorns is the one who hears the word, but then worldly anxiety and the lure of riches choke the word and it bears no fruit.

23 But the seed sown on rich soil is the one who hears the word and understands it, who indeed bears fruit and yields a hundred or sixty or thirtyfold."

What is really worse, rocky soil or thorns? The rocky falls on their own, the soil around thorns is attacked.... this is rhetorical, think about it and you will know what I speak of.

I'm not going to argue the point.

God Bless, Love in Christ & Mary

max

[Good Friday]

I'm going to try to reply to this thread calmly, then I'm going to send a message to dUSt. It's a pity that he has to babysit some of us, especially when this thread started out as and could have remained a friendly debate.

The moment the idea is admitted into society that property is not as sacred as the laws of God, and that there is not a force of law and public justice to protect it, anarchy and tyranny commence. If 'Thou shalt not covet' and 'Thou shalt not steal' were not commandments of Heaven, they must be made inviolable precepts in every society before it can be civilized or made free.

- John Adams, A Defense of the American Constitutions, 1787

To a Deist, the laws of God are equivalent to the laws of Nature. Note that Adams leave open the possibility that these are not commandments of Heaven: "If 'Thou shalt not covet' and 'Thou shalt not steal' were not commandments of Heaven..."

[L]iberty must at all hazards be supported. We have a right to it, derived from our Maker. But if we had not, our fathers have earned and bought it for us, at the expense of their ease, their estates, their pleasure, and their blood.

- John Adams, A Dissertation on the Canon and Feudal Law, 1765

Note the use of the word Maker. You will find this in many Deist writings: Maker, Creator, Nature's God, etc. That's because Deists believed and still believe that God was the Divine Clockmaker. He made the clock, wound it, and because he is perfect there is nothing wrong with it. It doesn't need to be wound again. Yes, Deists believe in God, but they are not Christians. I didn't ask if America was built upon theistic principles, I asked if it was built upon Christian principles.

Let the pulpit resound with the doctrine and sentiments of religious liberty. Let us hear of the dignity of man's nature, and the noble rank he holds among the works of God... Let it be known that British liberties are not the grants of princes and parliaments.

- John Adams, Dissertation on the Canon and Feudal Law, 1765

If anything, this quote about religious liberty only proves my point.

It is too probable that no plan we propose will be adopted. Perhaps another dreadful conflict is to be sustained. If, to please the people, we offer what we ourselves disprove, how can we afterwards defend our work? Let us raise a standard to which the wise and the honest can repair. The event is in the hand of God.

- George Washington, as quoted by Gouverneur Morris in Farrand's Records of the Federal Convention of 1787

George Washington was one of the few founding fathers who were actually Christian. The only quotes you've provided that have a Christian tone rather than a Deistic tone were by George Washington and Abraham Lincoln (who was hardly a founding father). So no, I'm not impressed by your quotes, which you claim are "historical facts" pointing to the "fact" that America was founded upon Christian principles. They're all quotes from Deists and Freemasons, with the God the Deists knew in mind, not the God of the Christians.

*****************************

Aside from that, I was pleasantly surprised to see that many of you here agree with me that America wasn't built on Christian principles. Of course, we disagree over whether or not that's a good or bad thing, but that's another story and another thread entirely.

Edited July 4, 2003 by Good Friday

[Winchester]

The US was not founded as a Christian nation.

I am siding with Friday against Ironmonk.

And NORAD is now tracking a swarm of airborne swine...

To put my own spin, some of America's principle were Christian, but the idea was not to create a Christian nation. That was smoke blown up our tooki (the preferred plural of tookus) by people well able to conceal non-Christian philosophy in the words of Christianity.

Words unmoored from their meanings...

[Good Friday]

I am siding with Friday against Ironmonk.

BE STILL, my heart. Pigs have flown, birds have oinked, the sky is falling, the fat lady has sung, and it's a chilly night in hell!

Did I read that right??? Nah, couldn't be.

[mark4IHM]

For what its worth, I'm with Friday and Winchester too, with the following qualifications.

The use of "Christian", as in America being founded on Christian principles, can cause confusion. To me, Christian is Catholic, and Protestantism is therefore not Christian, strictly speaking, as the Protestant creeds have retained only a few principles of Catholicism.

The concept of religious liberty is Protestant, not Catholic, and prior to 1965 had always been condemned by popes (Gregory XVI, Pius X, Pius X, Pius XI, and others) as being disruptive to the social order, and tending to indifferentism. Under Catholic governments of bygone eras, religious tolerance was the rule, ie, other creeds could exist in Catholic lands but their worship was private, and generally speaking, they were barred from political office (although there were many exceptions to this).

Friday, Washington was a Freemason, albeit a "conservative" one. If you ever get to Washington D.C., there is a display of his Masonic apron, and other tools of the craft. The American Revolution was seen in Europe as a squabble between Protestantism (England) and Freemasonry. The squabble continues today, as some sincere Protestant fundamentalists try to assert their creed into a government that at best, will only pay lip service to their ideals.

While I'm at it, why wouldn't the founding of a government on Christian (read: Catholic) principles be a good idea? Shouldn't governments, for the benefit of their people, be founded on truth?

[Azriel]

I gotta say, I'm with Nathan and the gang on this one.