Keep The Sabbath Holy

[PatrickRitaMichael]

I don't believe the mosaic covenant applies today.  Christ came and fulfilled that covenant and now we are under the new covenant.  Many things are similar - you can notice 9/10 of the original ten commandments are restated by Jesus to apply to us.  The sabbath is not, but I still believe there lies a principle behind it we should remember.  And that is putting aside time to give to God alone.

But didn't Jesus come to fulfil the covenant, not create a whole new one? If that's true, then doesn't the 'making ourselves holy' stuff get perfected in Christ (He makes us holy) and the other moral laws still stay in place. Morality can't change, right? And if the Sabbath is a moral law, then why don't we still have to keep it (as a day set aside for God w/ no work)?

If only some things are the same in the new and old covenants, who decides what is to be kept and what things discarded? I believe that bestiality (sp?) is only mentioned in the OT and not in the NT but no one would say that b/c it isn't mentioned in the NT it doesn't apply.

This is a tangent, but I'm wondering what your opinion of this is: some people take the 'the principle behind it' thing and apply that to what they want to do or not do. For example, some people would argue that the laws against homosexuality are not actually against homosexual sex but against promiscuity (the underlying principle) and so monogamous homosexual relationships are okay. I realize that Paul speaks against homosexuality so this isn't an arguement, just an example. Why can't you extend that reasoning beyond what you're saying?

What's your rationale behind what you say? I'm not familiar w/ biblical interpretation techniques so I need you to edumacate me

Remember, just pickin' your brain here nice and friendly-like :D

[Norseman82]

If only some things are the same in the new and old covenants, who decides what is to be kept and what things discarded?

The Church, per my Acts 15 example in regards to circumcision above.

[Circle_Master]

But didn't Jesus come to fulfil the covenant, not create a whole new one? If that's true, then doesn't the 'making ourselves holy' stuff get perfected in Christ (He makes us holy) and the other moral laws still stay in place. Morality can't change, right? And if the Sabbath is a moral law, then why don't we still have to keep it (as a day set aside for God w/ no work)?

He did fulfill the old one, and He did make a new one. A completely new one (Jeremiah 31, Deuteronomy 6, Hebrews 7, Matthew 5). I'm not sure what you think determines a moral law either. Morals are rather vague, even the definition of moral is "conforming to standards of what is right". There is no distinction between 'moral laws' and other ones in the Old Testament, nor the new to the best of my knowledge. So yes, when Christ came He brought an entirely new covenant into being commenced by His blood on the cross (covenants are always sealed by blood in the bible). The 10 commandments, at least most of them are in their purest form - i.e. the principles. The sabbath is built off of a principle however since it is not commanded in the new testament, and that principle is to trust in God, set aside time to dwell in God's presence, things like that.

If only some things are the same in the new and old covenants, who decides what is to be kept and what things discarded? I believe that bestiality (sp?) is only mentioned in the OT and not in the NT but no one would say that b/c it isn't mentioned in the NT it doesn't apply.

Everything applies in the Mosaic Covenant, it is up to biblical scholars to determine how it applies today since we are not under the mosaic covenant. Careful with your word choices too, there are many covenants in the Old Testament - the mosaic covenant is just one of them. The Edenic Covenant, Noahic Covenant, Mosaic Covenant, Davidic Covenant, New Covenant, Eternal Covenant are some of the other ones.

This is a tangent, but I'm wondering what your opinion of this is: some people take the 'the principle behind it' thing and apply that to what they want to do or not do. For example, some people would argue that the laws against homosexuality are not actually against homosexual sex but against promiscuity (the underlying principle) and so monogamous homosexual relationships are okay. I realize that Paul speaks against homosexuality so this isn't an arguement, just an example. Why can't you extend that reasoning beyond what you're saying?

It would apply to everything in the Old Testament. You can't pick and choose what applies out of the bible.

[PatrickRitaMichael]

The Church, per my Acts 15 example in regards to circumcision above.

Thanks for your help everyone. What the Church says, I agree with, and I've seen the benefits personally in my life of keeping the Sabbath, even when I don't want to keep it (I was inspired by Scott Hahn in his book Rome Sweet Home). I was more curious as to what the Church taught b/c it doesn't seem like many Catholics actually follow what the Church teaches about the Sabbath. for you Catholics out there, why is that?

As far as the questioning w/ Circle goes, I'm in it more to learn what the Protestant perspective is, not to adopt it. Thanks Circle for your answers. One more question: if the Sabbath isn't so important (actually keeping it, not just the principle of giving something to God), why was it so emphasized by putting it in the 10 commandments and wouldn't giving some time to God be perfected in the giving of a whole day, what God has already 'suggested' in the OT as a good amount? All the laws can be summed up as 1. Love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul, and mind. 2. Love your neighbor as yourself. Wouldn't keeping the Sabbath fall under number 1?

[Truth]

I was just wondering what you all thought about the command to keep the Sabbath holy. It's one of THE TEN so I figure it's really important and it's not like it was a cleanliness law so that doesn't change... why don't more people 'keep the sabbath'? do you keep the sabbath? what does this mean? and why doesn't the Church emphasize this more? So many questions...it's pretty open, just want your thoughts on this but I'm not sure if this should be under open mic or not.

This was changed by? What reason do the CC give you for that change? Do you really think that God is pleased? The Sabbath have not change in God word. This is the first step from God. But the CC feel that it just a day of rest. Infallible is his word not the CC.

[Truth]

But didn't Jesus come to fulfil the covenant, not create a whole new one? If that's true, then doesn't the 'making ourselves holy' stuff get perfected in Christ (He makes us holy) and the other moral laws still stay in place. Morality can't change, right? And if the Sabbath is a moral law, then why don't we still have to keep it (as a day set aside for God w/ no work)?

If only some things are the same in the new and old covenants, who decides what is to be kept and what things discarded? I believe that bestiality (sp?) is only mentioned in the OT and not in the NT but no one would say that b/c it isn't mentioned in the NT it doesn't apply.

This is a tangent, but I'm wondering what your opinion of this is: some people take the 'the principle behind it' thing and apply that to what they want to do or not do. For example, some people would argue that the laws against homosexuality are not actually against homosexual sex but against promiscuity (the underlying principle) and so monogamous homosexual relationships are okay. I realize that Paul speaks against homosexuality so this isn't an arguement, just an example. Why can't you extend that reasoning beyond what you're saying?

What's your rationale behind what you say? I'm not familiar w/ biblical interpretation techniques so I need you to edumacate me

Remember, just pickin' your brain here nice and friendly-like :D

The Ten didn't change. Christ didn't change the ten, the CC did, that was the first step to mislead.

[Jake Huether]

I don't believe the mosaic covenant applies today.  Christ came and fulfilled that covenant and now we are under the new covenant.  Many things are similar - you can notice 9/10 of the original ten commandments are restated by Jesus to apply to us.  The sabbath is not, but I still believe there lies a principle behind it we should remember.  And that is putting aside time to give to God alone.

Matthew 12:12

How much more valuable is a man than a sheep! Therefore it is lawful to do good on the Sabbath.

Mark 2:27

Then he said to them, The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath.

Actually, the Sabbath is restated by Jesus. Only, he is explaining it's importance. It is for our benefit. It isn't meant to bind us, but to release us! The Pharisees were all up in a huff because they "couldn't" pick grain or heal on the Sabbath (or so they thought) so they were upset when Jesus and His Desciples were doing good on the Sabbath, although they still were observing it mind you.

Answer us this, Circle, if why on earth would God give the Isrealites the command to observe the Lords Day, the Sabbath, if it was "unnecessary". And if it was necessary for them, why is it not necessary for us now?

For the life of me, I cant understand why God would command one people to do one thing, yet not have the same thing or similar apply to another group?

If it was good and healthy for His people then, then why the change?

So, indeed, 10/10 commandments are restated by Christ, and 10/10 commandments are held by His Church.

[PatrickRitaMichael]

The Ten didn't change. Christ didn't change the ten, the CC did, that was the first step to mislead.

Truth, what are you talking about? Circle, a non Catholic, was the one arguing for the 9/10. The Catholic Church still keeps the Ten Commandments. I don't know what your point is except maybe hating on Catholics!

[ironmonk]

I don't believe the mosaic covenant applies today.  Christ came and fulfilled that covenant and now we are under the new covenant.  Many things are similar - you can notice 9/10 of the original ten commandments are restated by Jesus to apply to us.  The sabbath is not, but I still believe there lies a principle behind it we should remember.  And that is putting aside time to give to God alone.

Christ is the Lord of the Sabbath.

The Scriptures are not anceint cave drawings that no one has been around to explain them so we have to guess what they meant.

The Church established by Christ has been writing to explain the teachings for roughly the last 2000 years.

If you start with the first two to four century writings of these men, your understanding of the Word will greaten deeply.

The Didache

"But every Lord’s day . . . gather yourselves together and break bread, and give thanksgiving after having confessed your transgressions, that your sacrifice may be pure. But let no one that is at variance with his fellow come together with you, until they be reconciled, that your sacrifice may not be profaned" (Didache 14 [A.D. 70]).

The Letter of Barnabas

"We keep the eighth day [sunday] with joyfulness, the day also on which Jesus rose again from the dead" (Letter of Barnabas 15:6–8 [A.D. 74]).

Ignatius of Antioch

"[T]hose who were brought up in the ancient order of things [i.e. Jews] have come to the possession of a new hope, no longer observing the Sabbath, but living in the observance of the Lord’s day, on which also our life has sprung up again by him and by his death" (Letter to the Magnesians 8 [A.D. 110]).

Justin Martyr

"[W]e too would observe the fleshly circumcision, and the Sabbaths, and in short all the feasts, if we did not know for what reason they were enjoined [on] you—namely, on account of your transgressions and the hardness of your heart. . . . [H]ow is it, Trypho, that we would not observe those rites which do not harm us—I speak of fleshly circumcision and Sabbaths and feasts? . . . God enjoined you to keep the Sabbath, and imposed on you other precepts for a sign, as I have already said, on account of your unrighteousness and that of your fathers . . ." (Dialogue with Trypho the Jew 18, 21 [A.D. 155]).

"But Sunday is the day on which we all hold our common assembly, because it is the first day on which God, having wrought a change in the darkness and matter, made the world; and Jesus Christ our Savior on the same day rose from the dead" (First Apology 67 [A.D. 155]).

Tertullian

"[L]et him who contends that the Sabbath is still to be observed as a balm of salvation, and circumcision on the eighth day . . . teach us that, for the time past, righteous men kept the Sabbath or practiced circumcision, and were thus rendered ‘friends of God.’ For if circumcision purges a man, since God made Adam uncircumcised, why did he not circumcise him, even after his sinning, if circumcision purges? . . . Therefore, since God originated Adam uncircumcised and unobservant of the Sabbath, consequently his offspring also, Abel, offering him sacrifices, uncircumcised and unobservant of the Sabbath, was by him [God] commended [Gen. 4:1–7, Heb. 11:4]. . . . Noah also, uncircumcised—yes, and unobservant of the Sabbath—God freed from the deluge. For Enoch too, most righteous man, uncircumcised and unobservant of the Sabbath, he translated from this world, who did not first taste death in order that, being a candidate for eternal life, he might show us that we also may, without the burden of the law of Moses, please God" (An Answer to the Jews 2 [A.D. 203]).

The Didascalia

"The apostles further appointed: On the first day of the week let there be service, and the reading of the holy scriptures, and the oblation [sacrifice of the Mass], because on the first day of the week [i.e., Sunday] our Lord rose from the place of the dead, and on the first day of the week he arose upon the world, and on the first day of the week he ascended up to heaven, and on the first day of the week he will appear at last with the angels of heaven" (Didascalia 2 [A.D. 225]).

Origen

"Hence it is not possible that the [day of] rest after the Sabbath should have come into existence from the seventh [day] of our God. On the contrary, it is our Savior who, after the pattern of his own rest, caused us to be made in the likeness of his death, and hence also of his resurrection" (Commentary on John 2:28 [A.D. 229]).

Victorinus

"The sixth day [Friday] is called parasceve, that is to say, the preparation of the kingdom. . . . On this day also, on account of the passion of the Lord Jesus Christ, we make either a station to God or a fast. On the seventh day he rested from all his works, and blessed it, and sanctified it. On the former day we are accustomed to fast rigorously, that on the Lord’s day we may go forth to our bread with giving of thanks. And let the parasceve become a rigorous fast, lest we should appear to observe any Sabbath with the Jews . . . which Sabbath he [Christ] in his body abolished" (The Creation of the World [A.D. 300]).

Eusebius of Caesarea

"They [the early saints of the Old Testament] did not care about circumcision of the body, neither do we [Christians]. They did not care about observing Sabbaths, nor do we. They did not avoid certain kinds of food, neither did they regard the other distinctions which Moses first delivered to their posterity to be observed as symbols; nor do Christians of the present day do such things" (Church History 1:4:8 [A.D. 312]).

"[T]he day of his [Christ’s] light . . . was the day of his resurrection from the dead, which they say, as being the one and only truly holy day and the Lord’s day, is better than any number of days as we ordinarily understand them, and better than the days set apart by the Mosaic law for feasts, new moons, and Sabbaths, which the apostle [Paul] teaches are the shadow of days and not days in reality" (Proof of the Gospel 4:16:186 [A.D. 319]).

Athanasius

"The Sabbath was the end of the first creation, the Lord’s day was the beginning of the second, in which he renewed and restored the old in the same way as he prescribed that they should formerly observe the Sabbath as a memorial of the end of the first things, so we honor the Lord’s day as being the memorial of the new creation" (On Sabbath and Circumcision 3 [A.D. 345]).

Cyril of Jerusalem

"Fall not away either into the sect of the Samaritans or into Judaism, for Jesus Christ has henceforth ransomed you. Stand aloof from all observance of Sabbaths and from calling any indifferent meats common or unclean" (Catechetical Lectures 4:37 [A.D. 350]).

Council of Laodicea

"Christians should not Judaize and should not be idle on the Sabbath, but should work on that day; they should, however, particularly reverence the Lord’s day and, if possible, not work on it, because they were Christians" (Canon 29 [A.D. 360]).

The Apostolic Constitutions

"And on the day of our Lord’s resurrection, which is the Lord’s day, meet more diligently, sending praise to God that made the universe by Jesus, and sent him to us, and condescended to let him suffer, and raised him from the dead. Otherwise what apology will he make to God who does not assemble on that day . . . in which is performed the reading of the prophets, the preaching of the gospel, the oblation of the sacrifice, the gift of the holy food" (Apostolic Constitutions 2:7:60 [A.D. 400]).

Augustine

"Well, now, I should like to be told what there is in these ten commandments, except the observance of the Sabbath, which ought not to be kept by a Christian. . . . Which of these commandments would anyone say that the Christian ought not to keep? It is possible to contend that it is not the law which was written on those two tables that the apostle [Paul] describes as ‘the letter that kills’ [2 Cor. 3:6], but the law of circumcision and the other sacred rites which are now abolished" (The Spirit and the Letter 24 [A.D. 412]).

And in Scripture:

Isaiah 1:13 - God begins to reveal His displeasure with the Sabbath.

Matt. 28:1; Mark 16:2,9; John 20:1,19- the Gospel writers purposely reveal Jesus' resurrection and appearances were on Sunday. This is because Sunday had now become the most important day in the life of the Church.

Acts 20:7 - this texts shows the apostolic tradition of gathering together to celebrate the Eucharist on Sunday, the "first day of the week." Luke documents the principle worship was on Sunday because this was one of the departures from the Jewish form of worship.

1 Cor. 16:2 - Paul instructs the Corinthians to make contributions to the churches "on the first day of the week," which is Sunday. This is because the primary day of Christian worship is Sunday.

Col. 2:16-17 - Paul teaches that the Sabbath was only a shadow of what was fulfilled in Christ, and says "let no one pass judgment any more over a Sabbath."

2 Thess. 2:15 - we are to hold fast to apostolic tradition, whether it is oral or written. The 2,000 year-old tradition of the Church is that the apostles changed the Sabbath day of worship from Saturday to Sunday.

Heb. 4:8-9 - regarding the day of rest, if Joshua had given rest, God would not later speak of "another day," which is Sunday, the new Sabbath. Sunday is the first day of the week and the first day of the new creation brought about by our Lord's resurrection, which was on Sunday.

Heb. 7:12 - when there is a change in the priesthood, there is a change in the law as well. Because we have a new Priest and a new sacrifice, we also have a new day of worship, which is Sunday.

Rev 1:10 - John specifically points out that he witnesses the heavenly Eucharistic liturgy on Sunday, the Lord's day, the new day of rest in Christ.

Matt. 16:19; 18:18 - whatever the Church binds on earth is bound in heaven. Since the resurrection, Mass has been principally celebrated on Sunday.

Your Servant in Christ,

ironmonk

Edited January 19, 2004 by ironmonk

[Circle_Master]

Jake - Matthew 12:12

How much more valuable is a man than a sheep! Therefore it is lawful to do good on the Sabbath.

Mark 2:27

Then he said to them, The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath.

These are not commands.

Ironmonk - bunch of church father quotes which prove nothing.  example:

The Didache - "every Lord’s day"

- ok, I agree there is a Lord's day today

The Letter of Barnabas - "We keep the eighth day [sunday] with joyfulness"

- that is good, I have joy on it as well

Ignatius of Antioch - T]hose who were brought up in the ancient order of things [i.e. Jews] have come to the possession of a new hope, no longer observing the Sabbath, but living in the observance of the Lord’s day

- ok so Ignatius agree's we don't have to keep the sabbath, good to know I have support from the church fathers

Justin Martyr - [H]ow is it, Trypho, that we would not observe those rites which do not harm us—I speak of fleshly circumcision and Sabbaths and feasts?

- The church council already ruled we do not need fleshly circumcision so no point is made.  He speaks of them doing no harm - not a commandment

Tertullian - his blurb agrees we are not required to keep the sabbath as well

I apologize, it seems Ironmonk agree's with me for once that the Sabbath is not a command for us! I'm being honest there, all his quotes supported it. Not sure why you are trying to help me out here though.

Jake - Actually, the Sabbath is restated by Jesus. Only, he is explaining it's importance. It is for our benefit. It isn't meant to bind us, but to release us! The Pharisees were all up in a huff because they "couldn't" pick grain or heal on the Sabbath (or so they thought) so they were upset when Jesus and His Desciples were doing good on the Sabbath, although they still were observing it mind you.

Answer us this, Circle, if why on earth would God give the Isrealites the command to observe the Lords Day, the Sabbath, if it was "unnecessary". And if it was necessary for them, why is it not necessary for us now?

It was never unnecessary, and I never said it was. I said it is not commanded for us - but there is still value in it. We are to draw principles from it on spending time for God and for God alone.

hope that clarifies a little bit.

and Jake - you seem to disagree with Ironmonk here, all his church father quotes agreed we are not to keep the sabbath, but that they decided to have it as a day of celebration.

[ironmonk]

These are not commands.

I apologize, it seems Ironmonk agree's with me for once that the Sabbath is not a command for us! I'm being honest there, all his quotes supported it. Not sure why you are trying to help me out here though.

It was never unnecessary, and I never said it was. I said it is not commanded for us - but there is still value in it. We are to draw principles from it on spending time for God and for God alone.

hope that clarifies a little bit.

and Jake - you seem to disagree with Ironmonk here, all his church father quotes agreed we are not to keep the sabbath, but that they decided to have it as a day of celebration.

You fail to realize that the Church has the authority to teach. It is necessary to Worship on the Lord's Day, which is the New Sabbath.

The keys... "what you bind on earth is bound in heaven..."

Your point falls apart when looking at what has been taught since the Apostles.

God Bless, Your Servant in Christ,

ironmonk

[Jake Huether]

These are not commands.

I know that.

Jesus in these passages affirms the necessity of the Sabbath as a day of rest, for our benefit.

He never rejected the commandment. Nor did he ever charge us to disregard it.

and Jake - you seem to disagree with Ironmonk here, all his church father quotes agreed we are not to keep the sabbath, but that they decided to have it as a day of celebration.

Well, I'm sorry that it "seemed" that way. I agree with everything that Ironmonk has said.

You see, Christ didn't reject this command. He did however give authority to the Church to "bind" and "loose". And the Church "bound" that the NEW "Sabbath", the Lords Day, would be the 8th day. And so, indeed the Sabbath is kept Holy.

And it wasn't any ol' celebration, Cirlce! They met to celebrate the breaking of the Bread! The Mass! But the entire day isn't a big fiesta! They still observed the Lords day.

[Jake Huether]

You fail to realize that the Church has the authority to teach. It is necessary to Worship on the Lord's Day, which is the New Sabbath.

The keys... "what you bind on earth is bound in heaven..."

Your point falls apart when looking at what has been taught since the Apostles.

God Bless, Your Servant in Christ,

ironmonk

We posted at the same time, and said almost the same thing.

It's all in the Authority of the Church, Circle.

Get past that, and you're on your way home!

[Aloysius]

By whom was this changed? What reason does the CC give you for that change? Do you really think that God is pleased? The Sabbath has not change in God's word. This is the first step from God. But the CC felt that it is just a day of rest. His Word is infallible, not the CC.

< i fixed your grammer cause it annoys me >

the Catholic Church didn't change the day. Christ did. Christ fulfilled the old covenant, and by Him being dead on the old sabbath and risen on Sunday that was the seventh day of His earthly week there, He completely skipped a day on Earth and came back after His work of salvation to rest on His seventh day of that week, same way God rested on the seventh day of the week He created the world.

The Catholic Church doesn't consider it just a day of rest, never has never will. it has considered it a day to give glory to God by going to mass, and also a day of rest.

therefore God changed it because He rested and had Mass after His salvitic work on SUNDAY whereas He had rested before from His work of creation on SATURDAY.

[ironmonk]

We posted at the same time, and said almost the same thing.

It's all in the Authority of the Church, Circle.

Get past that, and you're on your way home!

CMTA... Catholic Minds Think Alike

:D

Your Servant,

ironmonk