Guest JeffCR07 Posted January 18, 2007 Share Posted January 18, 2007 [quote name='Cam42' post='1129665' date='Nov 28 2006, 09:33 AM'] Chant by defintion has no duality of voices. So, you are correct in saying that he is writing polyphony, but polyphony can never be chant. [/quote] Really? I was listening to a lecture given by a professor of music history on a Teaching Company cd (I know, I'm a dork) and he explained that there are two kinds of chant: monophonic and polyphonic chant. Monophonic chant seems to be what you are refering to, but he classified sacred polyphony as a form of chant music as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cam42 Posted January 18, 2007 Share Posted January 18, 2007 [quote name='JeffCR07' post='1168936' date='Jan 18 2007, 10:10 AM'] Really? I was listening to a lecture given by a professor of music history on a Teaching Company cd (I know, I'm a dork) and he explained that there are two kinds of chant: monophonic and polyphonic chant. Monophonic chant seems to be what you are refering to, but he classified sacred polyphony as a form of chant music as well. [/quote] I would have challenged him. Again, by definition chant has no duality of tones. Here is an basic understanding of the differences. [quote]Chants are organized into eight scalar modes. Typical melodic features include characteristic incipits and cadences, the use of reciting tones around which the other notes of the melody revolve, and a vocabulary of musical motifs woven together through a process called centonization to create families of related chants. Instead of octave scales, six-note patterns called hexachords underlie the modes. These patterns use elements of the modern diatonic scale as well as what would now be called B flat. Gregorian melodies are transcribed using neumes, an early form of musical notation from which the modern five-line staff developed during the 16th century.[/quote] While Gregorian chant influenced the development of polyphony, they are very different in nature and tonality. There is nothing which points to polyphony being a form of chant, in a proper sense. [quote]polyphony is a texture consisting of two or more independent melodic voices, as opposed to music with just one voice (monophony) or music with one dominant melodic voice accompanied by chords (homophony). Polyphony rose out of melismatic organum, the earliest harmonization of the chant. Twelfth century composers, such as Léonin and Pérotin developed the organum that was introduced centuries earlier, and also added a third and fourth voice to the now homophonic chant. In the thirteenth century, the chant-based tenor was becoming altered, fragmented, and hidden beneath secular tunes, obscuring the sacred texts as composers continued to play with this new invention called polyphony. The lyrics of love poems might be sung above sacred texts in the form of a trope, or the sacred text might be placed within a familiar secular melody.[/quote] So, with all that, I would have seriously challenged the speaker. There is nothing wrong with that. Even "experts" can be incorrect. It is part of being human. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azriel Posted January 18, 2007 Share Posted January 18, 2007 Uh, it would have been hard to challenge the speaker, since Jeff said that he was listening to a CD. I suppose he could written to him, or something ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
picchick Posted January 22, 2007 Share Posted January 22, 2007 [quote name='Balthazor' post='1126728' date='Nov 23 2006, 01:44 PM'] I like a lot of different kinds of music. But I think that some is just more suited than others to be in a mass. It is a delicae balance to find songs that are motivating enough that people like them and participate in them, while still retating respect and sacredness in this holy time and space. This is after a mass, not a pep rally [/quote] I must totally agree with this. I believe that you forgot an important section in your poll: hymns (unless that is considered polyphony. Polyphony in Music History was older than my hymns.) By hymns I am talking about How Great Thou Art, Immaculate Mary, and such NOT on Eagle's Wings. Gregorian chant is perferred by the Church but I look at it like this, what is the point if I do not know what they are saying and cannot join in? I talking my singing at Mass seriously because I use it as part of my prayer. Singing is praying twice. Meg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest JeffCR07 Posted January 23, 2007 Share Posted January 23, 2007 cool, thanks for the info Cam, just for my own benefit, what is the source for those quotes? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dandy777 Posted January 23, 2007 Share Posted January 23, 2007 [quote name='Cam42' post='1126711' date='Nov 23 2006, 07:18 PM'] Everyone and I mean EVERYONE knows how I feel on this issue. [/quote] I don't! : : Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moneybags Posted February 19, 2007 Share Posted February 19, 2007 Proudly voted for: Strictly Gregorian Chant/Sacred Polyphany Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dandy777 Posted February 19, 2007 Share Posted February 19, 2007 I didn't read all the posts but can I ask a question ... what's all this fuss and big deal with Gregorian chants? Ok they are nice and all but I feel they are fine during big ceremonies and the like not for daily/weekly Mass. I think Gregorian was chosen at the time because there was no other variation or suitable music that could be done in church. But nowadays it is different. I think that as long as the music and lyrics focus entirely on God and are a means of worship and help the congragation to come into God's presence, then there's a big thumbs up from my end. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moneybags Posted February 19, 2007 Share Posted February 19, 2007 These are parts of the Vatican II document, Sacrosanctum Concilium: 36.1. Particular law remaining in force, the use of the Latin language is to be preserved in the Latin rites. 54....steps should be taken so that the faithful may also be able to say or to sing together in Latin those parts of the Ordinary of the Mass which pertain to them. 115....Composers and singers, especially boys, must also be given a genuine liturgical training. 116. The Church acknowledges Gregorian chant as specially suited to the Roman liturgy: therefore, other things being equal, it should be given pride of place in liturgical services. 120. In the Latin Church the pipe organ is to be held in high esteem, for it is the traditional musical instrument which adds a wonderful splendor to the Church's ceremonies and powerfully lifts up man's mind to God and to higher things. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dandy777 Posted February 20, 2007 Share Posted February 20, 2007 [quote name='St. Benedict' post='1200523' date='Feb 19 2007, 11:10 PM']These are parts of the Vatican II document, Sacrosanctum Concilium: 36.1. Particular law remaining in force, the use of the Latin language is to be preserved in the Latin rites. 54....steps should be taken so that the faithful may also be able to say or to sing together in Latin those parts of the Ordinary of the Mass which pertain to them. 115....Composers and singers, especially boys, must also be given a genuine liturgical training. 116. The Church acknowledges Gregorian chant as specially suited to the Roman liturgy: therefore, other things being equal, it should be given pride of place in liturgical services. 120. In the Latin Church the pipe organ is to be held in high esteem, for it is the traditional musical instrument which adds a wonderful splendor to the Church's ceremonies and powerfully lifts up man's mind to God and to higher things.[/quote] I understand and I agree. I have high respect towards Gregorian chants and this type of sacred music even though I am not well read in this topic. However, could it be that this type of music was chosen because it was the only type of suitable music at the time and the choice of the elite who formed part of the clerical world at the time? I mean, I don't know your history but in my country up to a few decades ago only a handful of people used to understand Latin as most of the country was made up of farmers, fishermen and a few literate people who still weren't THAT much exposed to Latin. Do Gregorian chants and Latin prayer bring any meaning to these types of people or help them in their spiritual life in any way? I feel that if these types of people associate more with and feel that contemporary music helps them to elevate their hearts, minds and souls to God, they should be exposed to that music. At the end of it all, I think that the aim of Sacred Music is to build bridges between man and God. Maybe I am wrong but that is what I feel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moneybags Posted February 21, 2007 Share Posted February 21, 2007 I really like the contemporary "Christian Rock" [u]outside[/u] of Mass. I feel that Mass should always include the Latin prayers and Gregorian Chant, which connects us back centuries, eventually to the days of Christ Himself. There should be a distinction. Contemporary music is acceptable but not in the Mass. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Didymus Posted February 22, 2007 Share Posted February 22, 2007 Parce Domine as the Communion hymn today. It was sweet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bonoducchi Posted February 22, 2007 Share Posted February 22, 2007 [quote name='St. Benedict' post='1201760' date='Feb 21 2007, 03:15 PM']I really like the contemporary "Christian Rock" [u]outside[/u] of Mass. I feel that Mass should always include the Latin prayers and Gregorian Chant, which connects us back centuries, eventually to the days of Christ Himself. There should be a distinction. Contemporary music is acceptable but not in the Mass.[/quote] Christ never used Gregorian Chant. It wasn't developed for hundreds of years after he ascended into Heaven. The prayers he said were not in Latin. Greek was the original language of the Mass. Kyrie eleison, for example, is the only Greek that we've retained in the Roman liturgy. And also remember, Latin was at one a time a target language for the liturgical translations. Now it is normative. Chant is given pride, but is not exclusively the music of the Roman liturgy. Let's be careful about seeing links that aren't there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Knight of the Holy Rosary Posted February 27, 2007 Share Posted February 27, 2007 VaticanIILiturgist, Do you believe that Chant and Polyphany are superior to other forms of liturgical music? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeffpugh Posted February 27, 2007 Share Posted February 27, 2007 (edited) I sorta voted number two, but I am leaning heavily on #1. It depends on the style of the contemporary piece. I personally find most [b]p&w and 60s,70s,80s music for the liturgy[/b] crass and hippie-ish and downright insane because we are at Calvary at the mass! Therefore, anything less solemn/respectful would not fit the situation. I would rather go to a said mass than to put up with hippie music (especially for the excuse "it reaches the young people!"). I think hymns, Gregorian Chant and Sacred Polyphony are great treasures of the Church that should not be overlooked for Evangelization in our contemporary society because it is truly far from boring and is wondrous if people slam on the breaks on their stimulation-filled, fast paced lives and listen (not that Polyphony can't be fast I don't mind some Christian music OUTSIDE of mass. Good old P&W for some kind of gathering or campfire night or something wouldn't hurt. Edited February 28, 2007 by Sacred Music Man Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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