Cam42 Posted November 23, 2006 Share Posted November 23, 2006 [quote name='prose' post='1126799' date='Nov 23 2006, 04:22 PM'] So, basically, we would never know. That smells of elderberries. [/quote] Not really, there are lots of things we will never know...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
prose Posted November 23, 2006 Share Posted November 23, 2006 Well, I don't know about you, but when I am explaining things to the youth, it is much easier when I have some sort of document or something to explain [i]why[/i] the Church does something. I have generally found that, as a whole, the Catholic Church is pretty good about not just sweeping things under the rug, so I would be surprised if this was just dropped. Ironically, the world could end tomorrow, and this whole conversation would be moot. I certainly hope they have contemporary music in heaven. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cam42 Posted November 23, 2006 Share Posted November 23, 2006 [quote name='prose' post='1126803' date='Nov 23 2006, 04:26 PM'] Well, I don't know about you, but when I am explaining things to the youth, it is much easier when I have some sort of document or something to explain [i]why[/i] the Church does something. I have generally found that, as a whole, the Catholic Church is pretty good about not just sweeping things under the rug, so I would be surprised if this was just dropped. Ironically, the world could end tomorrow, and this whole conversation would be moot. I certainly hope they have contemporary music in heaven. [/quote] I have had to explain this topic many times and there are plenty of documents to support the Church and to get the point across. I have never found it overly difficult to teach this position. We, as Americans, feel "entitled" to full disclosure. We are the only culture to think this way. The Church doesn't work on this premise and never has. We are to know and explain those things which we know. The Church expects us to defend those things which she has put forth, not to defend those things which she does not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
puellapaschalis Posted November 23, 2006 Share Posted November 23, 2006 First off, how is this "interreligious dialogue"? English plainchant settings are better than some stuff I've heard at Mass, but then we should remember that Latin has precedence (or at least ought to have precendence) over the vernacular. I (by which I mean that I'm not sure if I square with Church teaching on this) have a thought process that goes something like: 1. Latin is to be preferred over the vernacular 2. The vernacular may be used in response to a pressing pastoral need 3. Knowing the meaning of the words of the Ordinary at Mass isn't really a pressing pastoral need 4. Thus there isn't a good enough reason to sing in the vernacular at Mass. There are a few holes in this - I've swapped back and forth between "singing at Mass" and "the Ordinary" without really justifying it, and indeed there's a lot to be said about the Proper. But getting on with life is much healthier than posting on the debate board of all places, so I'm cutting this off here. Love and prayers, PP Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Resurrexi Posted November 23, 2006 Share Posted November 23, 2006 (edited) In the Mass, I like Gregorian (as well as Ambrosian and Eastern) chant, as well as orchestral Masses, very much. I think hymns in Mass should be a mix of chant and classical (in Latin only of course), but for the precessional and recessional hymns, traditional (by traditional I mean written at least 100 years ago) Catholic (by Catholic I mean not adapted from something from a local pagan tradition or written by a non-Catholic) hymns from the local region are also nice. Edited November 23, 2006 by StThomasMore Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LouisvilleFan Posted November 24, 2006 Share Posted November 24, 2006 [quote name='puellapaschalis' post='1126781' date='Nov 23 2006, 05:04 PM'] We've had this particular music, used only for the liturgy, for hundred of years, and to think that we're special enough to go and change it is something akin to Really Big Ego Syndrome, imnsho. This is all aside from the Church's teaching [/quote] So, what did the church do before Gregorian chant and the other music we now consider traditional even existed? I firmly believe it's the lyrics and not the instruments that make music reverent. Would "Amazing Grace" or "Ave Maria" be less reverent if accompianed by electric guitar or a little drum beat? Not that I have any clue about playing or writing music... I just like listening to it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Resurrexi Posted November 24, 2006 Share Posted November 24, 2006 Amazing Grace isn't a Catholic song... it's Protestant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lil Red Posted November 24, 2006 Share Posted November 24, 2006 [quote name='puellapaschalis' post='1126808' date='Nov 23 2006, 02:34 PM']First off, how is this "interreligious dialogue"?[/quote]it's not, it's gonna turn into a debate though, as per usual [quote name='puellapaschalis' post='1126808' date='Nov 23 2006, 02:34 PM']But getting on with life is much healthier than posting on the debate board of all places, so I'm cutting this off here.[/quote]yes, good plan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LouisvilleFan Posted November 24, 2006 Share Posted November 24, 2006 [quote name='StThomasMore' post='1126857' date='Nov 23 2006, 08:22 PM'] Amazing Grace isn't a Catholic song... it's Protestant. [/quote] It's written by a Protestant, but is there anything non-Catholic about it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DangerBoy Posted November 24, 2006 Share Posted November 24, 2006 I think that it is more important to look at the pillars of our mass then to look at the music that we sing. As Catholics we have The Gospel, and the Eucharist. While Protestants hold Praise and Woship and a sermon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Resurrexi Posted November 24, 2006 Share Posted November 24, 2006 [quote]I think that it is more important to look at the pillars of our mass then to look at the music that we sing. [/quote] It is actually very important. All high Masses have music set to them, and high Mass is the best way to adore the Holy Trinity. Beautiful liturgical music beautifies the Mass and helps lifts the minds and hearts of those assisting a the Holy Sacrifice to God. It is important that the lyrics of the music are orthodox so as not to preach heresy or falsehood or confuse those hearing the Holy Sacrifice. It is important to have the music be in good taste so as not to distract those present. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cam42 Posted November 24, 2006 Share Posted November 24, 2006 [quote name='LouisvilleFan' post='1126871' date='Nov 23 2006, 08:01 PM'] It's written by a Protestant, but is there anything non-Catholic about it? [/quote] We are not wretches and grace does not relieve fears and grace does not deliver us safely from anything......There are many theological issues with the song. [quote]So, what did the church do before Gregorian chant and the other music we now consider traditional even existed? I firmly believe it's the lyrics and not the instruments that make music reverent. Would "Amazing Grace" or "Ave Maria" be less reverent if accompianed by electric guitar or a little drum beat? Not that I have any clue about playing or writing music... I just like listening to it.[/quote] The argument of what did the Church do before, holds no weight, because we have clear direction on what to do now, based upon 2000 years of developing history. Should we simply brush that under the rug? And the Church disagrees with your opinion about it only being about lyrics. I have provided citation after citation to support the opposite of your statement. If you'd like to paruse them, you may....simply go to the search function and type "Liturgical Music" in the keyword and my handle "Cam42" in the member name, then read on. Would those songs be less reverent if accompanied by electric guitar or a drum beat? Yes, firstly, because neither instrument is apt. Secondly, the drum has been specifically proscribed from use in the Liturgy. Thirdly, there is no provable recourse to state that the guitar (electric or otherwise) can be rendered apt for usage in the Liturgy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest JeffCR07 Posted November 24, 2006 Share Posted November 24, 2006 [quote name='Cam42' post='1126783' date='Nov 23 2006, 05:06 PM'] I suppose that if someone could write new Gregorian Chant and it were deemed apt and suitable, then yes, it could be used.....however, there is no new Gregorian Chant modality that can be composed. So it would simply be a hypothetical. Here is a novel idea, why don't we simply start using Gregorian Chant again, most young people have never heard it and it would be "new" all over again. [/quote] I have a friend who is a Brother with the Dominicans in the Eastern Province, and he just finished writing a new polyphony Mass for three voices, so there is new chant being written, just few people know about it... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
N/A Gone Posted November 26, 2006 Share Posted November 26, 2006 all of our local churches try to have a modern proto feel..I either drive out of state or trudge. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Church Punk Posted November 27, 2006 Share Posted November 27, 2006 I am not surprised by this result, but it does attest to phatmasser seem to be drawn to orthodoxy. If you werent before you came, you leave orthodox. That is if you leave at all Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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