Liturgical Music

[Cam42]

[quote name='prose' post='1126765' date='Nov 23 2006, 03:35 PM']
But is there documents stating [i]only[/i] traditional music be used in Mass?

If the music is reverant and lyrically sound, why is it a problem? even if it was written yesterday.
[/quote]

That is not the point. And actually, yes, there are documents that state that the traditional music of the Church is most appropriate for the Liturgy. Look back to my previous posts on other threads.

[quote name='Ecclesia de Eucharista #52']It must be lamented that, especially in the years following the post-conciliar liturgical reform, as a result of a misguided sense of creativity and adaptation there have been a number of abuses which have been a source of suffering for many.....Liturgy is never anyone's private property, be it of the celebrant or of the community in which the mysteries are celebrated.[/quote]

[quote name='Chirograph on Tra le sollecitudini #2'][b]The Second Vatican Council followed up this approach in chapter VI of the Constitution Sacrosanctum Concilium on the Sacred Liturgy, in which the ecclesial role of sacred music is clearly defined: [u]"The musical tradition of the universal Church is a treasure of inestimable value, greater even than that of any other art.[/u][/b] The main reason for this pre-eminence is that, as sacred melody united to words, it forms a necessary or integral part of the solemn Liturgy."[/quote]

[quote name='Chirograph #2']The Fathers of the Second Vatican Council did not fail to reassert these principles with a view to their application in the changed conditions of the times. They did so specifically in chapter six of the Constitution Sacrosanctum Concilium. Pope Paul VI then saw that those principles were translated into concrete norms, in particular with the Instruction Musicam Sacram, promulgated on 5 March 1967 with his approval by the Congregation then known as the Sacred Congregation for Rites. [b]In this same context, it is necessary to refer to those principles of conciliar inspiration to encourage a development in conformity with [u]the requirements of liturgical reform and which will measure up to the liturgical and musical tradition of the Church.[/u][/b] The text of the Constitution Sacrosanctum Concilium in which it is declared that the Church "approves of all forms of true art which have the requisite qualities, and admits them into divine worship", finds satisfactory criteria for application in nn. 50-53 of the above-mentioned Instruction Musicam Sacram.[/quote]

[quote name='Chirograph #4']St Pius X's reform aimed specifically at purifying Church music from the contamination of profane theatrical music that in many countries had polluted the repertoire and musical praxis of the Liturgy. In our day too, careful thought, as I emphasized in the Encyclical Ecclesia de Eucharistia, should be given to the fact that not all the expressions of figurative art or of music are able "to express adequately the mystery grasped in the fullness of the Church's faith". [b]Consequently, not all forms of music can be considered suitable for liturgical celebrations.[/b][/quote]

I think that this speaks to the question that you raise.

[prose]

By teh way, I did read the previous posts. I gather that you said that the Church says nothing about specific instruments. I am not asking about that. I am asking about specific music. Could "new" gregorian chant be written now that would be appropriate? Or does it need to be from the past?

[puellapaschalis]

Greggors for me, thanks. And Palestrina. And Allegri for the Miserere.

Use all the different styles of music you like at gatherings, or conferences, or at sing songs round the campfire (I've been to all three and love them). But Mass is particular, and deserves and commands particular music. The Holy Sacrifice is like nothing else on earth, and the music should be like nothing else on earth either. We've had this particular music, used only for the liturgy, for hundred of years, and to think that we're special enough to go and change it is something akin to Really Big Ego Syndrome, imnsho. This is all aside from the Church's teaching (which is why we have people like Cam about, right?).

Love and prayers,

PP

[prose]

I know that not all forms of music are appropriate. I am just wondering about what specifically "measures up the the liturgical and musical tradition of the Church". If it was an english chant, would that count?

[Cam42]

[quote name='prose' post='1126780' date='Nov 23 2006, 04:03 PM']
By teh way, I did read the previous posts. I gather that you said that the Church says nothing about specific instruments. I am not asking about that. I am asking about specific music. Could "new" gregorian chant be written now that would be appropriate? Or does it need to be from the past?
[/quote]

I suppose that if someone could write new Gregorian Chant and it were deemed apt and suitable, then yes, it could be used.....however, there is no new Gregorian Chant modality that can be composed. So it would simply be a hypothetical.

Here is a novel idea, why don't we simply start using Gregorian Chant again, most young people have never heard it and it would be "new" all over again.

[Fulton Sheen Warrior]

+JMJ+

[quote]You are welcome. Again, there is nothing that called for the elimination of Sacred Music. For the most part, it was simply abandoned.

This is an ongoing quesion that I have been posing for many, many years: I would like for someone to show me where Vatican Council II authorized, condoned, supported, required, etc., the elimination of Traditional Sacred Music?

AND......

If that answer is negative: What is the point of the phrase, "Spirit of Vatican II," when it is taken in the context of Sacred Music; if Vatican Council II is not the reasoning of new music in the Church.

If that answer is positive: Can one use the documents of the Church to support his position? If one cannot, then is it in keeping with the "Spirit of Vatican II?"[/quote]

Wonderfully well-put! 'Spirit of Vatican II'? Translation: "I haven't read the documents but would like to do what I want"

[prose]

I can't stand Gregorian Chat...

But it isn't about what I want or like. I am just curious about how this stuff is determined. I heard that the American Bishops were coming out with a list of contemporary songs that are appropriate for Mass and that it would be out in the next two years. Would they be appropriate then? Or only if Vatican says it? And if their list wouldn't count, why have the council?

[Cam42]

[quote name='prose' post='1126782' date='Nov 23 2006, 04:05 PM']
I know that not all forms of music are appropriate. I am just wondering about what specifically "measures up the the liturgical and musical tradition of the Church". If it was an english chant, would that count?
[/quote]


There is an adapation of Gregorian Chant to the English language. While there are a few problems with the melody, it is more or less in keeping with the basics of Gregorian Chant.....however, many priests choose not to use it.

[prose]

These aren't "challenges" by the way, they are honest curiosity.

[Cam42]

[quote name='prose' post='1126786' date='Nov 23 2006, 04:08 PM']
I can't stand Gregorian Chat...

But it isn't about what I want or like. I am just curious about how this stuff is determined. I heard that the American Bishops were coming out with a list of contemporary songs that are appropriate for Mass and that it would be out in the next two years. Would they be appropriate then? Or only if Vatican says it? And if their list wouldn't count, why have the council?
[/quote]


Only if the Vatican says so. That is called "RECOGNITIO," and it is required for anything official coming from a conference of bishops, in regard to the Liturgy and certain other arenas.

[prose]

Interesting.

So, if this list comes out, and the Vatican doesn't approve, it just gets thrown away? Or will it just not be published until approval?

[Cam42]

[quote name='prose' post='1126792' date='Nov 23 2006, 04:13 PM']
Interesting.

So, if this list comes out, and the Vatican doesn't approve, it just gets thrown away? Or will it just not be published until approval?
[/quote]

It needs to be approved first.

[prose]

Okay, so if it wasn't approved, would Vatican say why? Like, for instance, would they say because the style was inappropriate, or would it just be dropped?

[Cam42]

[quote name='prose' post='1126794' date='Nov 23 2006, 04:17 PM']
Okay, so if it wasn't approved, would Vatican say why? Like, for instance, would they say because the style was inappropriate, or would it just be dropped?
[/quote]

It would be communicated to the conference, but it most likely will not be made "public." Things are submitted all the time. The Church normally doesn't define in a negative manner.

[prose]

So, basically, we would never know. That smells of elderberries.