"what If 'gays' Went On Strike?"

[Mateo el Feo]

[quote name='zeyeon' post='1129119' date='Nov 27 2006, 06:55 PM']There is a massive difference between correction and condemnation. Just as massive as the difference between judgement and discernment. I never said correction wasn't necessary. But that person has to come to you with a geniune heart before you minister.[/quote]I don't understand why a sinner needs a "genuine heart" before someone may correct him. For example, did Jesus wait for the money changers to have a "genuine heart" before he corrected them?

I would agree that a difference exists between correction and condemnation. But, maybe we should seek to understand what others mean by the terms used. Before being "appalled" by the comments of others, you may want to question them to see if you understand their posts. Sometimes, being appalled is a red flag for not understanding the other poster's intent.

[quote]and your church is apparently a classic example as to why private interpretation exists! it obviously needs accountability. The verse I gave you was translated word for word from HEBREW. the original language in which Psalms was written. There is not a more accurate translation that exists.[/quote]Assuming you are fluent in Hebrew, this just re-affirms my point. The idiom "stand in the way" is specific to English, and was not intended in the original language. Feel free to review the passage on this website:

[url="http://unbound.biola.edu/"]http://unbound.biola.edu/[/url]

They've got four Hebrew translations of the Bible.

[bonoducchi]

It concerns me that we are engagin in such angry toned discussion on this topic. Why don't we speak in such virulent terms about those who enable the genocide in Darfur or encourage divisivess in the Church? And where does it say that homosexuality is any worse than any other sins, of which we are all guilty? Jesus spent much time speaking about concern for the poor and absolutely none on homosexualty. Should we not take a cue from our Savior?

Edited November 28, 2006 by VaticanIILiturgist

[zeyeon]

[quote name='Mateo el Feo' post='1129125' date='Nov 27 2006, 07:12 PM']
I don't understand why a sinner needs a "genuine heart" before someone may correct him. For example, did Jesus wait for the money changers to have a "genuine heart" before he corrected them?

I would agree that a difference exists between correction and condemnation. But, maybe we should seek to understand what others mean by the terms used. Before being "appalled" by the comments of others, you may want to question them to see if you understand their posts. Sometimes, being appalled is a red flag for not understanding the other poster's intent.

Assuming you are fluent in Hebrew, this just re-affirms my point. The idiom "stand in the way" is specific to English, and was not intended in the original language. Feel free to review the passage on this website:

[url="http://unbound.biola.edu/"]http://unbound.biola.edu/[/url]

They've got four Hebrew translations of the Bible.
[/quote]

The translations I'm giving you are from the WLC. that's the only one where the Original hebrew indexing is more in tact than the others, so logically my conclusion is that it is the most accurate hebrew version.

The idiom arguement you gave isn't accurate, because that passage, in hebrew, meant what it said in english.

he was using a literary device called Parallelism... First he was walking, then standing, then sitting... this literary device stays intact in the hebrew versions... Granted "stand in the way" can be interpreted as stand on the path, or stand on the road, but the main concept of Obstructing the course remains intact, just as the literary device of Parallelism stays in tact. The word "Stand" is necessary to keep keep this literary device in tact.

The other translations corrupt the Parellelism being used, and some just outright corrupt the intent of the passage.

Edited November 28, 2006 by zeyeon

[bonoducchi]

[quote name='zeyeon' post='1128376' date='Nov 26 2006, 07:35 PM']
The original language of the Psalms was Hebrew. Don't come at me with latan translations... that's like translating it from Japaneese.

The translation directly from Hebrew is

Happy is the man that hath not walked in the counsel of the wicked,
nor stood in the way of sinners, nor sat in the seat of the scornful.

Can somebody please tell this fool, who has an obvious issue with understanding the english language, that the word NOR means NOT to stand in the way of sinners? and the word nor means NOT to scorn people? lol

thanks
[/quote]

Temper, child....temper....why get so angry?

[zeyeon]

[quote name='VaticanIILiturgist' post='1129248' date='Nov 27 2006, 09:18 PM']
Temper, child....temper....why get so angry?
[/quote]

i'm not angry I just have a forceful personality lol. Especially to people who've called me a "troll" on multiple occasions.

[Mateo el Feo]

[quote name='zeyeon' post='1129225' date='Nov 27 2006, 08:55 PM']
The translations I'm giving you are from the WLC. that's the only one where the Original hebrew indexing is more in tact than the others, so logically my conclusion is that it is the most accurate hebrew version.

The idiom arguement you gave isn't accurate, because that passage, in hebrew, meant what it said in english.

he was using a literary device called Parallelism... First he was walking, then standing, then sitting... this literary device stays intact in the hebrew versions... Granted "stand in the way" can be interpreted as stand on the path, or stand on the road, but the main concept of Obstructing the course remains intact, just as the literary device of Parallelism stays in tact. The word "Stand" is necessary to keep keep this literary device in tact.

The other translations corrupt the Parellelism being used, and some just outright corrupt the intent of the passage.[/quote]I guess you will have to agree to disagree with ~2,600 years of Judeo-Christian Biblical Scholars.

Edited November 28, 2006 by Mateo el Feo

[zeyeon]

[quote name='Mateo el Feo' post='1129266' date='Nov 27 2006, 09:29 PM']
I guess you will have to agree to disagree with ~2,600 years of Judeo-Christian Biblical Scholars.
[/quote]

Obviously Judeo-Christian Scholars that have no concept of how to analyze creative writing.

[Mateo el Feo]

[quote name='zeyeon' post='1129273' date='Nov 27 2006, 09:34 PM']
Obviously Judeo-Christian Scholars that have no concept of how to analyze creative writing.[/quote]Apparently, they aren't very creative in interpreting, either.

[Socrates]

[quote name='zeyeon' post='1128376' date='Nov 26 2006, 08:35 PM']
The original language of the Psalms was Hebrew. Don't come at me with latan translations... that's like translating it from Japaneese.

The translation directly from Hebrew is

Happy is the man that hath not walked in the counsel of the wicked,
nor stood in the way of sinners, nor sat in the seat of the scornful.

Can somebody please tell this fool, who has an obvious issue with understanding the english language, that the word NOR means NOT to stand in the way of sinners? and the word nor means NOT to scorn people? lol

thanks
[/quote]
The translation "stand in the way of sinners" is actually taken straight from the Latin.
The translation that uses "loiters on the way that sinners take" is made from the Hebrew.
Since you're a Hebrew scholar, perhaps you could tell what this verse is in the original Hebrew, and why it means what you say it does.

As Mateo pointed out, "stand in the way" meaning to oppose is an English idiom. It doesn't have that meaning in the Hebrew or Latin, and this is clear from the context of the rest of the psalm; Don't take counsil (advice) from sinners, nor even stand around on their paths, nor sit with them.
Your "interpretation" doesn't even make sense - the entire psalm is praising the righteous and condemning the sinner.

The psalm says of the righteous:
[quote][b]But his will is in the law of the Lord, and on his law he shall meditate day and night.[/b][/quote]
The Law of Lord clearly condemns homosexuality and other sins. These sins are repeatedly condemned in the Bible.

And where do you get the idea that Christians must not even speak out against sin? That's certainly not Biblical!
As Christ Himself said:[quote]But if thy brother shall offend against thee, go, and rebuke him between thee and him alone. If he shall hear thee, thou shalt gain thy brother. And if he will not hear thee, take with thee one or two more: that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may stand. And if he will not hear them: tell the church. And if he will not hear the church, let him be to thee as the heathen and publican. [/quote] (Matthew 18:15-18).

And Christ had no problem "standing in the way of sinners" when he drove the money changers from the temple with a whip. (John 2:13-17)

And somehow I doubt you'd just stand by and do nothing if somebody tried to steal all your belongings, kill you, or rape your sister on the grounds that "we must not stand in the way of sinners"!
That "interpretation" is obviously pure nonsense! (Which is probably why you only apply it to sins that do not personally affect you!)

But if you insist on playing the silly game of taking a single Bible verse and using it however you want, I can play too.

What about Leviticus 20:13:
[quote]If any one lie with a man as with a woman, both have committed an abomination: [b]let them be put to death[/b].[/quote]
Can somebody please tell this fool, who has an obvious issue with understanding the english language, that "let them be put to death" obviously means that anyone who commits a homosexual act is to be killed! lol

And that's part of the Law that the first psalm tells us to meditate on!

Edited November 28, 2006 by Socrates

[zeyeon]

[quote name='Mateo el Feo' post='1129274' date='Nov 27 2006, 09:35 PM']
Apparently, they aren't very creative in interpreting, either.
[/quote]



socraties I can't WAIT to get home so I can destroy that logic lol. Wow I'm literally jumping up and down right now...

you obviously don't read my posts... I never said be quiet... i said there is a difference between correction and condemnation. Only God can condemn.... anyway wait till I get home lol...

Edited November 28, 2006 by zeyeon

[Kosh]

I'd agree with that. Love the Sinner Hate The Sin. Condemn the SIN.

[zeyeon]

Also... somebody please show me how to post hebrew characters on this board so I can shatter this debate lol.

[Mateo el Feo]

[quote name='zeyeon' post='1129321' date='Nov 27 2006, 10:08 PM']
Also... somebody please show me how to post hebrew characters on this board so I can shatter this debate lol.
[/quote]Have at it. We're all waiting to be shattered.

Psalm 1:1
[right][size=5]אַשְׁרֵי־הָאִישׁ אֲשֶׁר ׀ לֹא הָלַךְ בַּעֲצַת רְשָׁעִים וּבְדֶרֶךְ חַטָּאִים לֹא עָמָד וּבְמֹושַׁב לֵצִים לֹא יָשָׁב׃[/size][/right]

Edited November 28, 2006 by Mateo el Feo

[zeyeon]

[quote name='Mateo el Feo' post='1129353' date='Nov 27 2006, 10:31 PM']
Have at it. We're all waiting to be shattered.

Psalm 1:1
[right][size=5]אַשְׁרֵי־הָאִישׁ אֲשֶׁר ׀ לֹא הָלַךְ בַּעֲצַת רְשָׁעִים וּבְדֶרֶךְ חַטָּאִים לֹא עָמָד וּבְמֹושַׁב לֵצִים לֹא יָשָׁב׃[/size][/right]
[/quote]

Are you sure that's WLC? seems broken up.

[Mateo el Feo]

[quote name='zeyeon' post='1129411' date='Nov 27 2006, 11:03 PM']Are you sure that's WLC? seems broken up.[/quote]Are the spaces confusing you?