Circle_Master Posted January 17, 2004 Share Posted January 17, 2004 (edited) This man is lying to you... but you lied to us, I'm not throwing stones, but you need to get your story straight... your hypothetical situation is nothing more than a hypothetical straw man... I also said I knew people personally. So read what I write and don't call me a liar when there is no justification for it. You are denying this exists, you prove my point that the Catholic Church is not what it says it is. If you were trying to evangelize and glorify Jesus Christ's name throughout the earth, I am quite confused as to your method of explaining these people in the Catholic Church. You did find a closure at the end however by saying no one is saved until the end. However I believe your position would say everyone who is a member of the Catholic Church will be saved at the end? Correct, or no? p.s. locking threads to cover your butt isn't a very good maneuver either. especially when you contradict yourself in the last posts you present. Edited January 17, 2004 by Circle_Master Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hyperdulia again Posted January 17, 2004 Share Posted January 17, 2004 Circle is there a reason that you are putting "Church" behind quotation marks? I think you have a valid point, but what percieve as a mildly anti-Catholic bit of textualization makes me un-interested in it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Circle_Master Posted January 17, 2004 Share Posted January 17, 2004 I used it as "Church" to merely distinguish between a physical institution which the Catholic Church teaches, and the universal church as protestanism teaches. If it offends you, I apologize. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EcceNovaFacioOmni Posted January 17, 2004 Share Posted January 17, 2004 (edited) You can't just go through the motions. Not all Catholics are saved. That is the official position. BTW: ironmonk can't lock threads, he isn't a moderator. Edited January 17, 2004 by thedude Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Circle_Master Posted January 17, 2004 Share Posted January 17, 2004 Ironmonk can lock threads he starts. Got confirmation on that from dUSk. All church militants can. Please clarify on your statement "Not all Catholics are saved.". Do you believe the Catholic Church consists of believers and unbelievers then? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EcceNovaFacioOmni Posted January 17, 2004 Share Posted January 17, 2004 Not everyone who claims to be Catholic is truly a Catholic in the same way that you probably know of unfaithful Protestants. The Catholic Church doesn't consist of unbelievers and believers, because unbelievers aren't really Catholics at heart. It doesn't make them horrible people or mean that they will be sent to hell, they just don't think religion is important, but there is always the possibility that they will reconvert. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hyperdulia again Posted January 17, 2004 Share Posted January 17, 2004 i dunno who locked the "history" thread, but it wasn't me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EcceNovaFacioOmni Posted January 17, 2004 Share Posted January 17, 2004 Those crazy Militants... I didn't know they had so much power. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Circle_Master Posted January 17, 2004 Share Posted January 17, 2004 Not everyone who claims to be Catholic is truly a Catholic in the same way that you probably know of unfaithful Protestants. The Catholic Church doesn't consist of unbelievers and believers, because unbelievers aren't really Catholics at heart. It doesn't make them horrible people or mean that they will be sent to hell, they just don't think religion is important, but there is always the possibility that they will reconvert. I'm a bit confused. So being a member of the Catholic Church doesn't mean you actually do belong to it? You are saying not all those in the Catholic Church are saved. Just like in our protestant churches we believe there are many unbelievers who attend for comfort, or because it is what is expected of them. If you agree, then- How can you still call your church an institution? All saved people belong to the church in Scripture, and nobody who is unsaved belongs to it. Acts 2:47, 41 - and also Church members are always referred to as 'Sons of God' Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EcceNovaFacioOmni Posted January 17, 2004 Share Posted January 17, 2004 The unbelievers aren't actually in the Church. They are like Protestants who use the name Catholic. Not everyone who attends a Mass is truly a Catholic. You must believe in all Catholicisms's doctrines to be a real Catholic. So no, the Church doesn't have any unbelievers. All this twisty language is hurting my head. I hope we can finally achieve communication on this one... Sorry if I have been hard to understand. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Circle_Master Posted January 17, 2004 Share Posted January 17, 2004 (edited) So what is the church? Is it all believers who truly believe or Is it all members of an institution on earth. note: if you say the first one you are protestant. if you say the second you are Roman Catholic. (correct me if i'm wrong though, this is what people have been presenting here) Edited January 17, 2004 by Circle_Master Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pio Nono Posted January 17, 2004 Share Posted January 17, 2004 JMJ 1/16 - First Friday I think it's important to remember a couple of things. First, we as members of the Mystical Body of Christ are church - a group of faithful believers. However (Also?), we are not THE Church; that title belongs to the teaching Magesterium of the faithful under the guidance of the Holy Ghost. The idea that we are THE Church did not come along until Martin Luther's time in 1542. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Circle_Master Posted January 17, 2004 Share Posted January 17, 2004 so you agree in a universal invisible body as the church? That is interesting indeed. So why do you define 'THE Church' to be a title, and not actually speaking of the church of believers? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jrndveritatis Posted January 17, 2004 Author Share Posted January 17, 2004 In regards to Circle's question about whether the Church is all members of an institution on earth or all believers who truly believe, what is the Catholic teaching on this? I, as a Catholic, would like to know. Here is my personal take. It seems to me that even those who just go through the motions are in fact Catholics and members of the Church by virtue of their baptism. Of course they may not be living up to the Church's teachings and therefore are not "Catholic" in the full sense of the word. But they are part of the Church in my opinion. Also, those who are not Catholic but who are doing what they sincerely believe is morally right, are united in a certain way to the Church. So I guess you could say they are oriented towards the Church and members, although not in the full sacramental way. In summary it seems like the Church is both all members of an institution on earth AND all believers who truly do what they believe is right. So, am I missing something? I want to know the teaching on this so I am not inadvertently holding something contrary to it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phatcatholic Posted January 17, 2004 Share Posted January 17, 2004 (edited) also, circle, u need to know that having a particular union w/ the Catholic Church is different from being Catholic. every religion has a certain element of truth (pham, correct me if i'm wrong) and so are united to the Church in some way, albeit an imperfect, incomplete union. this is different from being Catholic, which is a person who was baptized "in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit" into the Catholic Church. it sounds to me that the people u are talking w/ are not actually Catholics, just people who walk into a Catholic Church every now and then so they can fill better about their mortality. does this help? let us know...........pax christi, phatcatholic Edited January 17, 2004 by phatcatholic Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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