jrndveritatis Posted January 16, 2004 Share Posted January 16, 2004 A very controversial teaching of the Church involves whether or not you can be saved outside of the Church. Here is an interesting article on the topic. Can Outsiders be Insiders? Is this article accurate? From all I have heard Fr. Stravinskas is orthodox. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ironmonk Posted January 16, 2004 Share Posted January 16, 2004 It is totally in line with Scripture and the following from the Catechism.... "Outside the Church there is no salvation" 846 How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers?335 Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body: Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.336 847 This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church: Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience—those too may achieve eternal salvation.337 848 "Although in ways known to himself God can lead those who, through no fault of their own, are ignorant of the Gospel, to that faith without which it is impossible to please him, the Church still has the obligation and also the sacred right to evangelize all men."338 Your Servant in Christ, ironmonk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Circle_Master Posted January 16, 2004 Share Posted January 16, 2004 Question Ironmonk. I have been speaking with several people from Spain recently who are in submission to the Roman Pontificate and within the Catholic Church. They speak of many members of the 'Church' who do not understand everything the Church teaches, and actually believe that their works are what saves them. They go to confession, and they go to mass, and they believe they are set. Since they are in the 'Church' and do these thing - yet do not believe in a changed heart then you would assume them to be followers of Jesus, correct? And if you say yes - then how can you have someone who truly does not believe Jesus is God and has given Him their live be part of your 'church' if the entire 'church' will be wed to Christ? And if you say no - then how can you have someone belonging to the 'Catholic Church' who is not a follower of Jesus, when the entire church is filled with the Holy Spirit and in union with Christ (1 Cor 12:13)? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
megamattman1 Posted January 16, 2004 Share Posted January 16, 2004 First, only God knows their heart. But based on your hypothetical opinion, my personal opinion is that they they are not truly part of the Church. Every Catholic isn't saved. As Jesus said, everyone must be born-again (even the non-fundamentalists) That's just me (not iron), but I do believe Catholic theology is in line with it as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Norseman82 Posted January 16, 2004 Share Posted January 16, 2004 They go to confession, and they go to mass, and they believe they are set. Since they are in the 'Church' and do these thing - yet do not believe in a changed heart then you would assume them to be followers of Jesus, correct? And if you say yes - then how can you have someone who truly does not believe Jesus is God and has given Him their live be part of your 'church' if the entire 'church' will be wed to Christ? Why would they do these things if they did not believe that Jesus is God? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
megamattman1 Posted January 16, 2004 Share Posted January 16, 2004 Why would they do these things if they did not believe that Jesus is God? Again, I'm not Circle, but I know many people who go to Church and don't believe simply because that's what they've done all their life. That's mostly teenagers though so they probably don't count toward your question. But I've also seen people who've made the transition from teen years into adult life that their partners believe and compel them to go even though they really don't. There's also just plain people who go just out of habit and those who go out of fear. (though you may argue if they are afraid, they really believe and God will give them peace when they die) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ironmonk Posted January 16, 2004 Share Posted January 16, 2004 Question Ironmonk. I have been speaking with several people from Spain recently who are in submission to the Roman Pontificate and within the Catholic Church. They speak of many members of the 'Church' who do not understand everything the Church teaches, and actually believe that their works are what saves them. They go to confession, and they go to mass, and they believe they are set. Since they are in the 'Church' and do these thing - yet do not believe in a changed heart then you would assume them to be followers of Jesus, correct? And if you say yes - then how can you have someone who truly does not believe Jesus is God and has given Him their live be part of your 'church' if the entire 'church' will be wed to Christ? And if you say no - then how can you have someone belonging to the 'Catholic Church' who is not a follower of Jesus, when the entire church is filled with the Holy Spirit and in union with Christ (1 Cor 12:13)? If they do all of those things, they do believe Christ is God. Christ is the center of everything in the Catholic Church, for them to do all those things, they would know Christ. Your hypothetical situation is based on a anti-Catholic perspective of the Catholic Church. I do not believe that these "people" that your are speaking with in Spain are Catholic... that is if you are really speaking with people from Spain. If you are, then they might not quite understand you or you them. We hear the Gospel at every Mass... every day of the year... A real Catholic would know this... especially one who goes to Mass, Confession, etc... Not to mention, if there are ignorant Catholics, it's between them and God... it is up to other Catholics to correct them... but the judgement of them is up to God. -ironmonk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ironmonk Posted January 16, 2004 Share Posted January 16, 2004 Again, I'm not Circle, but I know many people who go to Church and don't believe simply because that's what they've done all their life. That's mostly teenagers though so they probably don't count toward your question. But I've also seen people who've made the transition from teen years into adult life that their partners believe and compel them to go even though they really don't. There's also just plain people who go just out of habit and those who go out of fear. (though you may argue if they are afraid, they really believe and God will give them peace when they die) But his point is "they think they are set". It's another straw man. God Bless, ironmonk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
megamattman1 Posted January 16, 2004 Share Posted January 16, 2004 hmm... good point, something I hadn't really considered in my last comment. So it depends on what he's trying to get across by "think they are set". so the question comes down to does them "thinking they are set" save them? i would so think so if they belief in Jesus and are in that mindset. But couldn't someone by the way they participate lie to themselves and say as long as i participate i can still sin.. etc (much like many protestants who like to indulge in sin in this mindset) Unless he meant the individual participates in the not sinning aspect too, in which case it's a straw man since he's doing it all with a living faith. THen maybe he meant if the said person participates and thinks he is compromising with God. "I'll do this if you save me." This is actually probably a prevalent occurance in the Church and I know of many in both categories that do this that I wouldn't call likely to be saved. I think the people who do all these things that is he referring to would be like all the Pharasee's of Jesus' day who lied to themselves, God, and everyone else and did everything in vain. It's happened before. Or maybe we should ask Circle! What did you mean by "think they are set"?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ironmonk Posted January 16, 2004 Share Posted January 16, 2004 Some of this stuff is best left between God and the person. Yes, people are hot, lukewarm, and cold.... God calls us all at different times. No one is set until they persevere until the end... so anyone thinking that they are set is doing wrong... there is no assurance. There is hope. Some people will go through the motions because that is what they know, but that does not mean that they don't believe... Christ will be looking at their hearts. If they think they are serving God correctly then they are inside the Church, that goes for all men, Catholic and non-Catholic.... If someone does not believe and is going through the motions, then one day a light may shine on them and something click inside them to make them on fire for Christ. Again... this is all up to God... not us... it's all summed up in if we serve God the way we think He wants us to... If they don't believe in God, then why would they think they were set? If they don't believe in God, they are not going to think they are going to Heaven. They are not going to believe in Heaven. Maybe they go through the motions for social reason and guidence, but if they don't believe but are trying to be good people, then in a sense they are serving God the best way they know how. Since God chooses us, is it really that person's fault if they have been taught wrong. I'm sure their parents or others in their life brought then to unbelief..... Romans 2:14 For when the Gentiles who do not have the law by nature observe the prescriptions of the law, they are a law for themselves even though they do not have the law. 15 They show that the demands of the law are written in their hearts, 6 while their conscience also bears witness and their conflicting thoughts accuse or even defend them 16 on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge people's hidden works through Christ Jesus Your Servant in Christ, ironmonk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NewReformation Posted January 16, 2004 Share Posted January 16, 2004 But his point is "they think they are set". It's another straw man. God Bless, ironmonk I would agree with Ironmonk. It is a straw man argument, and poorly constructed at that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PedroX Posted January 16, 2004 Share Posted January 16, 2004 It is important that not everybody in the world can read or understand theology or ecclesiology. People have all been gifted with different levels of understanding. I find it hard to believe that someone could go to confession frequently and not believe in God. Even if it is fear of Hell (not as terrible a motivation as some would make it out to be!) it is still belief in God and Christ as the only means to heaven. We all need to give grace to those who may not be as gifted as we are. peace... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Circle_Master Posted January 17, 2004 Share Posted January 17, 2004 If they do all of those things, they do believe Christ is God. Christ is the center of everything in the Catholic Church, for them to do all those things, they would know Christ. Your hypothetical situation is based on a anti-Catholic perspective of the Catholic Church. This is not based on any anti-Catholic perspective - it is based on observances from men I know working in Spain who interact with Catholics there daily. You are claiming that every person in your 'Catholic Church' believes Jesus is the Christ and God. I am sorry to burst your perfect bubble, but this is not true. You can deny it - but it is not true. I know personally people who believe this, and I know personally people who attend and perform in the Catholic Church only because it gives them comfort in the prospect of death. So tell me again - do you claim these members are saved, or do you deny their existance. A simple answer is acceptable, not a discourse on the stupidity of my beliefs or a taunt on the perfection of the Catholic Church. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Archangel Posted January 17, 2004 Share Posted January 17, 2004 Matthew 7:21 -- "Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven." This is even more so for Protestants. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ironmonk Posted January 17, 2004 Share Posted January 17, 2004 This is not based on any anti-Catholic perspective - it is based on observances from men I know working in Spain who interact with Catholics there daily. You are claiming that every person in your 'Catholic Church' believes Jesus is the Christ and God. I am sorry to burst your perfect bubble, but this is not true. You can deny it - but it is not true. I know personally people who believe this, and I know personally people who attend and perform in the Catholic Church only because it gives them comfort in the prospect of death. So tell me again - do you claim these members are saved, or do you deny their existance. A simple answer is acceptable, not a discourse on the stupidity of my beliefs or a taunt on the perfection of the Catholic Church. First hand info or second hand info... BIG differnce.... You might want to get your story straight before you try to lie about Catholics. Your creditablity is nil... it is based on observances from men I know working in Spain who interact with Catholics there daily. or is it... I have been speaking with several people from Spain recently who are in submission to the Roman Pontificate and within the Catholic Church. do you claim these members are saved No one is saved until the end... even Jesus says so. St. Matt 24:13 But the one who perseveres to the end will be saved. St. Matt 10:22 You will be hated by all because of my name, but whoever endures to the end will be saved. St. Luke 8:13 Those on rocky ground are the ones who, when they hear, receive the word with joy, but they have no root; they believe only for a time and fall away in time of trial. No Catholic or protestant or anyone else is saved until they die and go to Heaven. All Catholics in the Church that go to Mass, and Confession know that Jesus is God. The Creed is said at every Mass, and Christ is spoken of at every Mass. This man is lying to you... but you lied to us, I'm not throwing stones, but you need to get your story straight... your hypothetical situation is nothing more than a hypothetical straw man... May God Bless You. Your Servant in Christ, ironmonk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now