Tao Te Ching

[heavenseeker]

I'm haveing to read the Tao Te Ching for my freshmen comp class and then write a paper over it. It really makes a lot of sense, the Chiniese(sp?) had this stuff figured out 2500 years ago thats just awesome. So much of the Tao is simple comon sense stuff that is so basic that we just dont think about them. I find it cool how so many teachings from this book can be tied in with christian teachings.

is it possable to be both a christian and a taoist?

and

[KnightofChrist]

No, because in taoism [u]every[/u] good thing is partly evil, every evil thing is partly good, Ying and Yang and all that. Which would mean God, Jesus Christ is partly evil... and that is well just dead wrong.

Dont be seduce by taoism, it is a false religion, sure it may have some elements of truth but it does not have the fullness of Truth which only the Catholic Church holds. And if you put your faith in Christ 100% and follow His Church you need nothing taoism has to offer.


Your Brother in Christ,
KoC

[Myles Domini]

[quote name='heavenseeker' post='1123473' date='Nov 19 2006, 05:48 AM']
I'm haveing to read the Tao Te Ching for my freshmen comp class and then write a paper over it. It really makes a lot of sense, the Chiniese(sp?) had this stuff figured out 2500 years ago thats just awesome. So much of the Tao is simple comon sense stuff that is so basic that we just dont think about them. I find it cool how so many teachings from this book can be tied in with christian teachings.

is it possable to be both a christian and a taoist?

and
[/quote]

It is not possible to be both Christian and Taoist. For a start Taoism as a whole is not contained within the Tao Te Ching there are many other books and beliefs that make up the Taoist faith. Moreover, even the Tao Te Ching itself has within it many points that simply cannot be harmonised with Catholic orthodoxy.

Before I reverted to Catholicism I read the Tao Te Ching thinking that it may lead me down the path to philosophical enlightenment (indirectly it did as dissatisfaction with Lao Zi's [i]answers[/i] led me ultimately to continue my journey which ended in returning to the Church). I agree with you that it is a captivating book and many points are merely prudent pieces of advice on the other hand you needn't journey far into the Tao Te Ching to find objectionable material if you are a Christian.

From the off there are problems. At best you can interpret chapter 1 of the Tao Te Ching as making [i]the ultimate[/i] impersonal at worst you can interpret it as preaching pantheism. Chapter 2 continues this trend when it seeks to relativise everything as a mere product of perception, good and evil, being and non being, all of this the book claims are mere labels imposed upon the nameless by the knowing mind. Again to Catholic faith and philosophy, which insists upon objective truths beyond subjective perceptions, this doctrine is impossible to accept.

I could continue but to be honest I dont particularly fancy going through the Tao Te Ching and commenting upon what a Catholic cannot accept in each chapter. If you want to read a work written in a similar vein as the Tao Te Ching without compromising your Christianity I [b]strongly/highly[/b] recommend [url="http://www.gutenberg.org/files/14328/14328-h/14328-h.htm"]The Consolation of Philosophy by Boethius[/url]. In my opinion, one of the greatest works of philosophy ever penned, and certainly one of the best books I've ever read. Moreover, it has the added bonus of being short, which is always a plus point methinks. : Plodding through pages and pages to find someone's point is not my cup of tea...

[suuran]

KnightofChrist, I think you're working off the popular view of Taoism, not what it actually teaches. The ideas of Yin and Yang are a good deal more complex than just "good" and "evil"--I think it may also be masculine and feminine energy or something like that.

I haven't read any of the work in question...most of my knowledge of Chinese philosophy comes from reading about it, not actually reading it. Is it by Confucius?

I'd say it's not possible to be a Christian and a Taoist, because Taoism is its own religion, but it is very possible and even praiseworthy to be a Christian and have a deep respect for Confucian/other Chinese philosophy. Confucianism might actually be the single best non-Christian system of morality I've ever heard of.

I, personally, have a great respect for the Japanese [i]bushido[/i], the samurai code of conduct. I don't accept every principle (it's a code of conduct, not a religious system), but there's a great deal of good stuff to be gleaned from it, including some very profound insights into what composes virtue.

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='Jalazar' post='1123643' date='Nov 19 2006, 11:47 AM']
KnightofChrist, I think you're working off the popular view of Taoism, not what it actually teaches. The ideas of Yin and Yang are a good deal more complex than just "good" and "evil"--I think it may also be masculine and feminine energy or something like that.

I haven't read any of the work in question...most of my knowledge of Chinese philosophy comes from reading about it, not actually reading it. Is it by Confucius?

I'd say it's not possible to be a Christian and a Taoist, because Taoism is its own religion, but it is very possible and even praiseworthy to be a Christian and have a deep respect for Confucian/other Chinese philosophy. Confucianism might actually be the single best non-Christian system of morality I've ever heard of.

I, personally, have a great respect for the Japanese [i]bushido[/i], the samurai code of conduct. I don't accept every principle (it's a code of conduct, not a religious system), but there's a great deal of good stuff to be gleaned from it, including some very profound insights into what composes virtue.
[/quote]


[quote]source belief.net "What Taoist Believe"

T[u]he reality of good and evil is that [color="#FF0000"]all[/color] actions contain some aspect of each.[/u] This is represented in the t'ai chi, more commonly referred to as the yin-yang symbol. Any action would have some negative (yin) and some positive (yang) aspect to it. Taoists believe that nature is a continual balance between yin and yang, and that any attempt to go toward one extreme or the other will be ineffective, self-defeating, and short-lived. When people interfere with the natural balance by trying to impose their egoistic plans, they will not succeed; rather, the non-egoistic person allows nature to unfold, watching it ebb and flow from good to bad and back again.[/quote]

Having respect for is one thing, paticing parts of another gods principles is another and that is forbidden by God the Father, and the Church. Any other faith that has good points is a element of truth, however the Church has the fullness of truth. With this fullness of truth we do not need other faiths.

[heavenseeker]

well i knew you couldn't be both if you take it to the full extreme and treat it as a religion. What i was trying to get at and should have made this more clear is to be Catholic and use taoism as a code of conduct along side of it.

as for the ying and yang goes, it is a simble of ballance in the world and has little to do with good and evil. But to play off of the view of it simbalizing good and evil, I don't believe that it means that everything that is good is also somewhat evil. I think what it means is that every good is counter ballenced by an evil, every light has a shadow, every birth has a death, so on and so forth.

[beatty07]

There are a number of lines or even chapters in the Tao te Ching that made me think "oh, that's a nice way to put that." In other words, any truth there is already contained in Christ. But it's perfectly fine to think that someone else formulated it in an attractive or illuminating way. My only caution would be, do you know your Christian faith well enough to avoid being seduced by poetic falsehoods that are in the Tao?

It's ridiculously hard to even say what the Tao teaches, the translation is very problematic. Every translation is an interpretation, but in the case of Chinese poetry, even moreso. I'm told.

[Groo the Wanderer]

I prefer General Tso's Chicken myself....

you can have that and still be Catholic

Edited November 20, 2006 by Groo the Wanderer

[suuran]

Amen, beatty. I like bushido because it focuses on practical virtue and formulates its wisdom in a nicely masculine way that's very helpful to me. I'm not a solider or anything, but it's very cool to read a system of morality written for a warrior caste.

It helps that bushido isn't a theological or religious system--just a moral one.

[Myles Domini]

[quote name='heavenseeker' post='1124034' date='Nov 20 2006, 05:17 AM']
well i knew you couldn't be both if you take it to the full extreme and treat it as a religion. What i was trying to get at and should have made this more clear is to be Catholic and use taoism as a code of conduct along side of it.

as for the ying and yang goes, it is a simble of ballance in the world and has little to do with good and evil. [u]But to play off of the view of it simbalizing good and evil, I don't believe that it means that everything that is good is also somewhat evil. I think what it means is that every good is counter ballenced by an evil, every light has a shadow, every birth has a death, so on and so forth.[/u]
[/quote]

But this is false. Not every good is counter balanced by evil because evil is not a balance of anything but actually a privation. Evil is what occurs when good is lacking, it is not a substance it is the absence of a substance. This is most perfectly epitomised in God who is essentially being, goodness and everything else and who has no opposite or equal.

My advice: Read Boethius from the link I gave you.

PS) Not all good contains some evil and vice versa. Good and evil are illusions of the knowing mind according to Taoists, illusions which evaporate when one attains to union with the great void through spiritual cultivation and meditation.

[Guest Rick777]

Nope.

[suuran]

Myles Domini: I'm not saying you're wrong, or that Boethius isn't good, but just saying "Go read Boethius" isn't really answering the question. Man does not live on a single work of philosophy alone, after all. Just saying "all your philosophical needs reside in Boethius" seems kinda like saying "Why read all those fantasy novels? Just read The Lord of the Rings!" Most people who make a habit of reading read more than one book.

I'm sorry if that sounds harsh....

I have read the Consolation of Philosophy--I wrote a paper on it, in fact--but it didn't strike me as the definitive philosophical work which eliminates the need for any other.

Again, I'd say that heavenseeker should hold to what is good in the Tao Te Ching, use it to help him lead a Christian life, and reject what is bad. Spiritual questions can be discussed with a trusted priest or spiritual director. Reading Confucian philosophy doesn't strike me as any different from reading Aristotle, who was also a pagan.

[Myles Domini]

[quote name='Jalazar' post='1124593' date='Nov 20 2006, 11:45 PM']
Myles Domini: I'm not saying you're wrong, or that Boethius isn't good, but just saying "Go read Boethius" isn't really answering the question. Man does not live on a single work of philosophy alone, after all. Just saying "all your philosophical needs reside in Boethius" seems kinda like saying "Why read all those fantasy novels? Just read The Lord of the Rings!" Most people who make a habit of reading read more than one book.

I'm sorry if that sounds harsh....

I have read the Consolation of Philosophy--I wrote a paper on it, in fact--but it didn't strike me as the definitive philosophical work which eliminates the need for any other.

Again, I'd say that heavenseeker should hold to what is good in the Tao Te Ching, use it to help him lead a Christian life, and reject what is bad. Spiritual questions can be discussed with a trusted priest or spiritual director. Reading Confucian philosophy doesn't strike me as any different from reading Aristotle, who was also a pagan.
[/quote]

I do not believe that I at any point suggested that [i]The Consolation[/i] was definitive. However, it seemed an apropriate place to guide Heavenseeker who seemed to be interested in the 'anecdotes' of the Tao Te Ching above and beyond the ontological conclusions contained therein. After all, having read [i]The Consolation[/i] yourself you will agree that Boethius expounds the vanity of worldly concerns and the need for self-discovery in a similar vein, no? What differs in their investigation is the conclusions Boethius and Lao Zi reach and it is certainly true that the former shares more consonance with Christianity than the latter. I hope he doesn't mind me saying so but Heavenseeker, from what he gleamed from the Tao Te Ching about the nature of good and evil, does not seem to have the formation in the faith to look at philosophy with the discerning eye you suggest. Accordingly, I suggested a safer option that (in my opinion) is every bit as powerful as the Tao Te Ching. Namely, Boethius.

[uruviel]

[quote name='heavenseeker' post='1124034' date='Nov 19 2006, 11:17 PM']
well i knew you couldn't be both if you take it to the full extreme and treat it as a religion. What i was trying to get at and should have made this more clear is to be Catholic and use taoism as a code of conduct along side of it.
[/quote]

Where as I know nothing of the other religion, I can say that if you live by the laws of the church and if you live the Catholic faith then you should have no need or desire for any other code of conduct or guide lines. You should need nothing more than the faith you have and that alone.
That's not to say "Faith alone" as if believing will get you to Heaven, you must also have actions to go along, but I think you got my point.

[123]

[quote]is it possable to be both a christian and a taoist?[/quote]

For your own soul's sake, no you can't. Believe me there is deep spirtual stuff in taoism that will suprise you. Even if you play favorites with Catholicism and Taoism, there is still mentalities that could very possibly blind you spiritually.

Edited November 21, 2006 by GloriaIesusChristi