Dutch To Ban Wearing Of Muslim Burqa In Public

[Veritas]

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- [url="http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20061117/ts_nm/dutch_burqa_ban_dc"]http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20061117/ts_nm/dutch_burqa_ban_dc[/url]

By Alexandra Hudson Fri Nov 17, 1:58 PM ET
AMSTERDAM (Reuters) - The Dutch government agreed on Friday a total ban on the wearing of burqas and other Muslim face veils in public, justifying the move on security grounds.

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Immigration Minister Rita Verdonk will now draw up legislation which will result in the Netherlands, once one of Europe's most easy-going nations, imposing some of the continent's toughest laws against concealing the face.

"The cabinet finds it undesirable that garments covering the face -- including the burqa -- should be worn in public in view of public order, (and) the security and protection of fellow citizens," the Dutch Justice Ministry said in a statement.

The debate on face veils and whether they stymie Muslim integration has gathered momentum across Europe.

The Netherlands would be the first European state to impose a countrywide ban on Islamic face coverings, though other countries have already outlawed them in specific places.

The move by the center-right government comes just five days before a general election. The campaign has focused so far on issues like the economy rather than immigration because most mainstream parties have hardened their stances in recent years.

Last December Dutch lawmakers voted in favor of a proposal by far-right politician Geert Wilders to outlaw face-coverings and asked Verdonk to examine the feasibility of such a ban.

Because veils were worn for religious reasons, she had feared new legislation could come into conflict with religious freedom laws. But she said on Friday this was not the case.

MUSLIM HEADSCARF

Existing legislation already limits the wearing of burqas and other total coverings on public transport or in schools.

France has banned the Muslim headscarf and other religious garb from state schools while discussion in Britain centers on limiting the full facial veil, or niqab.

Italy has a decades-old law against covering the face in public as an anti-terrorism measure. Some politicians have called for this rule to be enforced against veiled Muslim women.

The Muslim community estimates that only about 50 women in the Netherlands wear the head-to-toe burqa or the niqab, a face veil that conceals everything but the eyes.

Dutch Muslim groups have complained a burqa ban would make the country's 1 million Muslims feel more victimized and alienated, regardless of whether they approve of burqas or not.

"This will just lead to more girls saying 'hey I'm also going to wear a burqa as a protest'," Naima Azough, a member of parliament from the opposition Green Left, told an election campaign meeting for fellow members of the Moroccan community.

Job Cohen, the Labour mayor of Amsterdam, said he opposed burqas in schools and public buildings, and said women wearing one who failed to get a job should not expect welfare benefits.

"From the perspective of integration and communication, it is obviously very bad because you can't see each other so the fewer the better," he told foreign journalists.

"But actually hardly anybody wears one ... The fuss is much bigger than the number of people concerned."

Since the murder of anti-immigration maverick Pim Fortuyn in 2002, the Dutch have lost a reputation for tolerance, pushing through some of Europe's toughest entry and integration laws.

Social and religious tensions have escalated in the last few years, exacerbated by the murder of film director and Islam critic Theo van Gogh by a Dutch-Moroccan militant in 2004.

(Additional reporting by Emma Thomasson)

[homeschoolmom]

[Winchester]

[quote name='Veritas' post='1122673' date='Nov 17 2006, 07:01 PM']

(Additional reporting by Emma Thomasson)
[/quote]

I really liked her in Sense and Sensibility.

[Sojourner]

[quote name='Winchester' post='1122688' date='Nov 17 2006, 06:13 PM']
I really liked her in Sense and Sensibility.
[/quote]
she's pretty good in Stranger than Fiction too.

[Winchester]

Oh, I so want to see that. That Will Ferrell is so hot right now.

[Thy Geekdom Come]

You know, here I thought the Dutch were liberal and they're not being PC...go figure...

[Veritas]

[quote name='Raphael' post='1122745' date='Nov 17 2006, 08:11 PM']
You know, here I thought the Dutch were liberal and they're not being PC...go figure...
[/quote]
+

I'd say this is standard pc actually -the crutch of modern "liberalism" is to deny any religious freedoms, which is exactly what they're doing here. The Dutch, like all liberals and socialists, are afraid of the morality of religion. Just another example of two-faced "tolerance".

[Winchester]

But many modern liberals are law sissies. They'll lose because they hate the military and are big, panty-waisted cry-baby poopy-faces.

[Sojourner]

[quote name='Winchester' post='1122743' date='Nov 17 2006, 07:05 PM']
Oh, I so want to see that. That Will Ferrell is so hot right now.
[/quote]
yes, yes he is

almost as hot as me

[puellapaschalis]

[quote name='Veritas' post='1122749' date='Nov 18 2006, 03:42 AM']
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I'd say this is standard pc actually -the crutch of modern "liberalism" is to deny any religious freedoms, which is exactly what they're doing here. The Dutch, like all liberals and socialists, are afraid of the morality of religion. Just another example of two-faced "tolerance".
[/quote]

Please stop generalising. In this paragraph you have named VA and a host of people I know who are devout, fervent Catholics, of being liberals and socialists, when you do not even know them. They are not afraid of the morality of religion, nor is their tolerance "two-faced", any more than you, as an American, are massively obese, as thick as two short planks, and don't know anything that happens beyond your own borders (although I have to say that after reading this post, I'm beginning to wonder).

Love and prayers,

PP

[VeniteAdoremus]

Personally, I don't agree with this ban, because I'm a strong supporter of freedom of religion and the freedom to choose what to wear. About half the population of my country agrees with me, and three-quarters of the rest probably doesn't really care or hasn't thought it through.

This law, however, isn't really about burqas at all. It's about the political system in the Netherlands, with a multi-party government, which means each party in the current government is trying to score a few points before election time. And please note that "election time" is in FOUR DAYS. So what we have here is a right-wing minister on a VERY small post who sees that the people in the Netherlands in general greatly disagree with her past policies and wants to make a final statement towards the people that DO agree with her (e.g. the people that haven't thought it over really well).

I hope this explains a little about the background of this law... our political system must look a bit strange to people from other countries (as other systems do to us, because we're simply not used to it).

(I do have some... strongish... feelings about this thread at the moment, but it's so easy to misunderstand each other on internet forums. I don't think typing them out will accomplish anything, and besides, PP has said it all, I think.)

[Veritas]

[quote name='puellapaschalis' post='1123064' date='Nov 18 2006, 05:16 AM']
Please stop generalising. In this paragraph you have named VA and a host of people I know who are devout, fervent Catholics, of being liberals and socialists, when you do not even know them. They are not afraid of the morality of religion, nor is their tolerance "two-faced", any more than you, as an American, are massively obese, as thick as two short planks, and don't know anything that happens beyond your own borders (although I have to say that after reading this post, I'm beginning to wonder).

Love and prayers,

PP
[/quote]

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Realizing my post was a generalization, I'd be happy to debate with you about socialists and liberals. Generalizations, when true, are helpful in addressing issues and situations -of course there are exceptions, I am speaking of institutional structures. As far as Americans being obese, I agree. As far as not knowing what happens beyond America, most don't. I don't take offense at either of those statements, because, generally, they are true! Now, having lived in Europe, studied the EU and world government and keeping in touch with a number of friends (and newsources there), they do not apply to me personally, but I am capable of making that distinction. It may be helpful for you to know, and I hope you do, that the term "liberal" in the US has a completely different connotation than it does in Europe, and therefore, you may be falling prey to semantics, i.e. taking offense where not only was none intended, but none is required and none was applicable. I think Venite's post was very helpful -addressing the "politics" of this move. If I am wrong, I am ready to be corrected with constructive information.

Edited November 18, 2006 by Veritas

[puellapaschalis]

This is, as far as I can see, not an American website, and so you cannot expect everyone to be fluent in American English. I've lived in both Europe and North America and have become familiar with different models of government on both sides of the Atlantic. I keep in touch with friends on that continent, read news sources from there, and yet I still don't make the claims that you just did, even if they did happen to be true.

Your generalisation - which is what I am talking about here, not about the points of being liberal, socialist, or two-faced in tolerance - would have been avoided with some small, simple words: "so many", "some", "the Dutch government", and so on. If you do not do this, you run the risk of people "interpreting" your words as applying for every x, where x lies within {Dutch people}. It's a small amount of effort to avoid a slander. This is not semantics, it's logic.

Further, unless you have lived in this country (the rest of the continent does not count) for any decent length of time - I'm talking more than a term, or even a year - and have met a considerable amount of people here, you cannot make a generalistion and claim that it would be true. How many Dutch people do you know well enough to have conversations with about this issue? How much of your knowledge of life in the Netherlands comes from your own experience of [i]living[/i] here (outside the tourist trap of Amsterdam)? How much of it comes from the media?

I am not prepared to quibble with you about how our interpretations of the word "liberal" differ. I do, however, take strong issue with your tarring every Dutch person with the "two-faced intolerance" brush. The fact of the matter is that in my experience which I dare to say is wider than yours in this, the majority of Dutch people are tolerant, some to a fault, but are not "two-faced" in anything more than a few select possibilities.

If you were referring to the political structure, then as someone who has studied that structure (I assume), you should have stated that explicitly. Your paragraph makes the same mistake that some people made in [url="http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?showtopic=55923&st=20"]this thread[/url].

VA is better qualified than I to talk about the issue itself; she follows the news more closely than I do and has a perspective on Dutch culture that neither you nor I can hope to attain.

Love and prayers,

PP

Edited November 18, 2006 by puellapaschalis

[Winchester]

[quote name='puellapaschalis' post='1123064' date='Nov 18 2006, 05:16 AM']
you, as an American, are massively obese, as thick as two short planks, and don't know anything that happens beyond your own borders (although I have to say that after reading this post, I'm beginning to wonder).

Love and prayers,

PP
[/quote]
That is awesome.

It is also slightly out of context, so don't anyone be alarmed.

[Resurrexi]

I think this is a good law... I hate freedom of religion as it is practiced in most places in the world right now... I believe in freedom to practice any religion privately, but that only Catholicism may be practiced publicly