The New Converts - God Is Rearranging His Garden

[mulls]

[quote name='Revprodeji' post='1124507' date='Nov 20 2006, 05:12 PM']
sweet...a pointless point with no argument but just general cockiness. Reminds me that I need to walk the dog.
[/quote]


nope, i just knew exactly the response i would get. any testimony i give would have holes in it in your eyes. i'm working from behind the 8-ball, and i wanted to point it out.

i said:

[quote]even though i already forsee the response.....

"The Catholics who converted were really cafeteria Catholics. They weren't faithful to the magisterium, properly catechized, regular attendees of confession, they had mortal sin on their soul, blah blah etc etc., and they chose to leave the Church to suit their own shallow needs."[/quote]

and it was proven with:

[quote]Please find me a Catholic who:
1. Has a deep prayer life
2. Not living in a mortal sin
3. Kept up with daily scripture readings
4. Believed and celibrated all Catholic doctrines.
5. Daily walked with Christ.
6. Not scandalized by sinful Catholics.[/quote]

and:

[quote]Why did your friends only begin reading the Bible so recently if they really were committed Catholics? Committed Catholics read the Bible on a regular basis, and it is committed Catholics whom we're discussing. Not nominal ones[/quote]


i don't know the extent of my friends' previous Catholicity. by "reading the bible on their own" maybe i should have clarified....they were seeking out truth for the first time using the bible, instead of just using it to justify what they already believed in.

but it seems, one must past a test to see if a person was "Catholic enough" by subjective standards for their conversion to be counted authentic. face it, if the Pope himself converted, you still wouldn't give it credence.

and what about those aforementioned nominal Catholics that we're not talking about? no love for them at all? just let 'em turn protestant because we didn't want 'em anyways?

[quote name='jswranch' post='1124512' date='Nov 20 2006, 05:13 PM']
Which one: the (a) Catholics leave the church once they read the bible myth or (b) not all Prots who become Catholic are the stellar Protestants?
[/quote]

(c.) any Catholic turned Prot wasn't really Catholic enough to begin with....they were weak, they have holes in their faith, etc etc.


i didn't claim as a generality either of the two you mentioned

Edited November 20, 2006 by mulls

[Mateo el Feo]

[quote name='mulls' post='1124519' date='Nov 20 2006, 05:21 PM']i don't know the extent of my friends' previous Catholicity. by "reading the bible on their own" maybe i should have clarified....they were seeking out truth for the first time using the bible, instead of just using it to justify what they already believed in.[/quote]This is a strange comment. Of the protestant Bible studies that I have attended, a number of them were not-to-subtle in being designed to indoctrinate the attendees into the pecular beliefs of the particular church running the show. Put a few verses together and you can prove almost anything is "Biblical." For Catholics, Holy Scriptures are much more than mere apologetic materials; which seems to be how you portray our use of them.

[quote name='mulls' post='1124519' date='Nov 20 2006, 05:21 PM']but it seems, one must past a test to see if a person was "Catholic enough" by subjective standards for their conversion to be counted authentic. face it, if the Pope himself converted, you still wouldn't give it credence.[/quote]Let's turn the question around. If a Muslim apologist used the Holy Bible to convert a protestant into a Muslim (i.e. with selective quotes), what would it take for you to count the conversion as "authentic"? I hope that nothing would make you believe that leaving Christianity could be "authentic."

We believe that the Catholic Faith is consistent with the Gospel message given to the world 2000 years ago. To the extent that they differ from the Catholic Faith, Protestant (not to mention non-Christian) teachings are in error. I don't really understand how a conversion away from Truth should be described as "authentic".

[quote name='mulls' post='1124519' date='Nov 20 2006, 05:21 PM']and what about those aforementioned nominal Catholics that we're not talking about? no love for them at all? just let 'em turn protestant because we didn't want 'em anyways?[/quote]This sounds like a strawman argurment. Wouldn't you agree?

[mulls]

[quote]This is a strange comment. Of the protestant Bible studies that I have attended, a number of them were not-to-subtle in being designed to indoctrinate the attendees into the pecular beliefs of the particular church running the show. Put a few verses together and you can prove almost anything is "Biblical." For Catholics, Holy Scriptures are much more than mere apologetic materials; which seems to be how you portray our use of them.[/quote]

How I use them? You mean me, personally? Maybe at first, but not anymore. Many people do make this mistake. I have a deeper appreciation for the bible as a whole, as a devotional text before anything else.

[quote]Let's turn the question around. If a Muslim apologist used the Holy Bible to convert a protestant into a Muslim (i.e. with selective quotes), what would it take for you to count the conversion as "authentic"? I hope that nothing would make you believe that leaving Christianity could be "authentic." [/quote]

Please clarify, as I will do here.....by authentic I mean genuine, real. Without getting into the eternal security debate, I think people genuinely can leave Christianity. That's what I mean by authentic. Doesn't mean it's justifiable.

[quote]We believe that the Catholic Faith is consistent with the Gospel message given to the world 2000 years ago. To the extent that they differ from the Catholic Faith, Protestant (not to mention non-Christian) teachings are in error. I don't really understand how a conversion away from Truth should be described as "authentic".[/quote]

Again, I'm talking genuiness, realness, not what is or isn't justified. A person can be sincere and wrong, right?

[quote]This sounds like a strawman argurment. Wouldn't you agree?[/quote]

I'm not constructing an argument out of that. It's a genuine question. I care about people. What about those "weak" Catholics? Just cut 'em loose?

[jswranch]

[quote]A person can be sincere and wrong, right?[/quote]

Correct.

[quote]I'm not constructing an argument out of that. It's a genuine question. I care about people. What about those "weak" Catholics? Just cut 'em loose?[/quote] Honestly, I am guilty of a lack of charity in my heart for such folks. I suppose the hostility comes from the 'lukewarmness' of their faith. Pray for me. I think the attitude I/we should have is one of concern and teaching. I recommend Wed night teaching and music/art meetings. Teaching (catechism) from the pulpit would be nice too.

Edited November 20, 2006 by jswranch

[cathoholic_anonymous]

[quote]I'm not constructing an argument out of that. It's a genuine question. I care about people. What about those "weak" Catholics? Just cut 'em loose?[/quote]

I am a weak Catholic. Not weak in terms of my theology (I am quite theologically knowledgeable for my age) but weak in terms of spirituality...just as we all are. For this reason, I have compassion on lukewarm Catholics who don't know much about their faith, as learning theology is easy and enjoyable. It would be lazy of me if I didn't pass on what I have learned in that arena. In return, the 'lapsed' Catholics whom I have talked to at discussion groups and the like have often enriched my spirituality in surprising ways that I did not expect.

[Mateo el Feo]

[quote name='mulls' post='1124551' date='Nov 20 2006, 05:54 PM']How I use them? You mean me, personally? Maybe at first, but not anymore. Many people do make this mistake. I have a deeper appreciation for the bible as a whole, as a devotional text before anything else.[/quote]I'm sorry for the confusion--I think my words weren't clear. I meant that I disagreed with your judgment that Catholics only use Holy Scriptures as an apologetic tool, "using it to justify what they already believed in." I don't think it's fair to paint Catholics in this way, as if we are not "seeking Truth."

Catholics aren't really taught (in Church or school/CCD) with apologetics in mind. When I was growing up, we didn't have teachers/priests who focused on responding to Protestantant missionaries. We were just focused on the Gospel message. Maybe that's why Catholics are such easy targets for Protestants who do define and propogate their religion based on the distinctions from Catholicism. For example, you don't see a lot of Trinitarian theology (a quintessential Christian belief) from the pulpits of Protestant churches or in tracts targeting Catholics.

[quote name='mulls' post='1124551' date='Nov 20 2006, 05:54 PM']Please clarify, as I will do here.....by authentic I mean genuine, real. Without getting into the eternal security debate, I think people genuinely can leave Christianity. That's what I mean by authentic. Doesn't mean it's justifiable.[/quote]For example, let us say a member of New Life Church was alienated by the scandal of Ted Haggard, and decided to become a Univeralist. Would this be an "authentic" or "genuine" conversion? I guess I don't know how to apply these terms in a meaningful way. Leaving Truth behind for a religion which teaches less Truth and more error seems to be a tragedy, no matter what the circumstance. Is it any less tragic when we can soften it with words like "authentic" or "genuine"? It reminds me of the same logic used by those Christians who advocate divorce and re-marriage (e.g. justifying a second/third/fourth marriage because it made the person "happier"), ignoring Our Lord's own teachings. I hope that makes sense.

[quote name='mulls' post='1124551' date='Nov 20 2006, 05:54 PM']Again, I'm talking genuiness, realness, not what is or isn't justified. A person can be sincere and wrong, right?[/quote]True: someone can be sincere and wrong.

In the case of interdenominational conversions, these ex-Protestant pastors were sincere and right. In many cases, it was their anti-Catholic prejudices that were wrong. For many, they really didn't want to become Catholics, despite finding the historical and theological Truth of the Church's teachings. This isn't just some propoganda that the Coming Home Network is putting out. In my own parish Church, the converts into the Catholic Faith share a number of similarities with the pastor-converts. This includes: a love for Truth, a personal investigation of Christianity's roots, and often a prejudice against the Catholic Faith.

[quote name='mulls' post='1124551' date='Nov 20 2006, 05:54 PM']I'm not constructing an argument out of that. It's a genuine question. I care about people. What about those "weak" Catholics? Just cut 'em loose?[/quote]To "cut'em loose" would be an act of despair, and a sin against the virtue of Hope. Our Lord cares about all people. Beyond "weak Catholics", He even loves those who killed Him on the Cross, and those who blaspheme Him today.

We live in a time of great sinners and great saints. We're fighting against a militantly secular culture that hasn't left the Christian population untouched.

My answer is: I pray that Our Lord would allow me the peace in knowing that I may not be able to change the world; but I can have an impact on those with whom I come into contact. If God can make me an instrument of His grace to bring others (luke-warm Catholics, on-fire Protestants, non-Christians, or whoever) closer to Him, then that is a great blessing.

[Anomaly]

Forget about it, mulls. They wouldn't admit to reality even if it hits them in the face. Their relationship with the Catholic Church IS their relationship with Jesus. They don't even know what the Catholic Church itself teaches about Salvific Grace.

It leads right back to your earlier question, 'are you better off being a lax member of the Catholic Church or an energized Christian of another denomination. You didn't get thoughtful, non-combative answers then, nor will you now.

You may grow in your relationship with God through grace and may want to become a Catholic to avail yourself of additional graces, but Catholics will make it a self-defeating proposition.

Cut bait.

[mulls]

Hey you can't say i don't try though, right?

[Mateo el Feo]

[quote name='mulls' post='1124715' date='Nov 20 2006, 08:44 PM']
Hey you can't say i don't try though, right?[/quote]Are you saying that I've been too combative for you?

[mulls]

no, not you personally.

there's just a general tone around here that is pretty much impossible to penetrate.

concerning this thread, it's "the Catholics that we lose to Protestantism are the weak ones which we didn't want anyways, but the Protestants to come home to the Catholic church are the well-read, well-studied, and it's proof that we're right."

[HS_Dad]

[quote name='mulls' post='1124807' date='Nov 20 2006, 10:27 PM']

there's just a general tone around here that is pretty much impossible to penetrate.

concerning this thread, it's "the Catholics that we lose to Protestantism are the weak ones which we didn't want anyways, but the Protestants to come home to the Catholic church are the well-read, well-studied, and it's proof that we're right."
[/quote]

I think people with that attitude imagine the "Catholics that we lose to Protestantism" are all becoming Episcopalians
who are actively practicing non-biblical lifestyles and not the reality of generally moving to strongly Orthodox Evangelical and Pentecostal Churches.... Anyways, I believe Christ wants us all to be one in Him gathered together around the throne.... So, the write-off mentality shoudl be right out!

[Katholikos]

[quote name='Anomaly' post='1124708' date='Nov 20 2006, 08:26 PM']
Forget about it, mulls. They wouldn't admit to reality even if it hits them in the face. Their relationship with the Catholic Church IS their relationship with Jesus.[/quote]The Church cannot be separated from Jesus, nor can Jesus be separated from the Church. He is the head, and the Church is His very body. On the road to Damascus, He said to Saul/Paul, who was persecuitng the Church, "Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting ME?" Christ weeps when anyone leaves the Church He founded for the salvation of the world. It is His will for all of us to be members of His Church and thus receive all the gifts He left us to help us get to heaven. "He who hears you (the leaders of His Church) hears me, and he who rejects you rejects me . . ."Lk 10:16.

[quote]They don't even know what the Catholic Church itself teaches about Salvific Grace.[/quote]The apostolic teaching of "Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus" is still operative. Everyone who is saved is saved through the Catholic Church, whether they know it or not. The Church teaches that those outside her corporate body MAY be saved. PERHAPS. Those who leave are in a much more precarious position than those who are ignorant of the Church's teaching.

"Hence, they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it." CCC 846

[quote]It leads right back to your earlier question, 'are you better off being a lax member of the Catholic Church or an energized Christian of another denomination. You didn't get thoughtful, non-combative answers then, nor will you now.[/quote]Encouraging another in apostasy is serious business. I'm concerned about both of you, praying for you.

[quote]You may grow in your relationship with God through grace and may want to become a Catholic to avail yourself of additional graces, but Catholics will make it a self-defeating proposition.[/quote]"When you stand to pray, forgive anyone against whom you have a grievance, so that you heavenly Father may, in turn, forgive you..." Mark 11:26 NAB.

=========================
Blessed Father Damien, pray for us!

[N/A Gone]

niiiice

[Thy Geekdom Come]

I just wanna say that I found out that the RCIA guidelines, with reference to those who come into full communion after having already been baptized, forbids calling them "converts."

Not judging the post or anything...just found that interesting and wanted to share.

[Veritas]

+

Intersting. I became a Catholic from Evangelicalism after I realized (Holy Spirit, Providence) that Catholicism is more Biblical than Biblical Fundamentalism! -That was it for me I loved being a "non-denominational" Evangelical Christian, but I LOVE being a 100% sold-out for Christ and His Church Catholic!

I can't wait till more Evangelicals become Catholics... they're great at a lot of things and bring a beautiful passion to the faith! Come-on home y'all -Jesus is waiting and welcoming!

Edited November 21, 2006 by Veritas