How Was The Bvm And St. Joseph's Marriage Valid?

[Resurrexi]

How would the Blessed Virgin Mary and St. Joseph's marriage have been valid if it was never consummated?

[moses]

[quote name='StThomasMore' post='1121085' date='Nov 15 2006, 06:39 PM']
How would the Blessed Virgin Mary and St. Joseph's marriage have been valid if it was never consummated?
[/quote]


hmm...thought provoking. yeah weird. someday we'll know?

[Thy Geekdom Come]

It wasn't a Christian marriage, since the sacrament was not yet instituted. It was a Hebrew marriage, and thus, it began at betrothal and, as I understand it, didn't need to be consummated. There wasn't a matter of sacramental validity.

[heyyoimjohnny]

validity doesn't depend on consummation. I believe validity mostly depends on the full consent of both the husband and wife? Someone who knows better could tell you for sure.

But a couple is validly married at the ceremony; they don't usually consummate it until that night. In most cases anyways. :-P

[moses]

[quote name='Raphael' post='1121350' date='Nov 15 2006, 09:59 PM']
It wasn't a Christian marriage, since the sacrament was not yet instituted. It was a Hebrew marriage, and thus, it began at betrothal and, as I understand it, didn't need to be consummated. There wasn't a matter of sacramental validity.
[/quote]


makes sense

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote name='heyyoimjohnny' post='1121352' date='Nov 15 2006, 10:00 PM']
validity doesn't depend on consummation. I believe validity mostly depends on the full consent of both the husband and wife? Someone who knows better could tell you for sure.

But a couple is validly married at the ceremony; they don't usually consummate it until that night. In most cases anyways. :-P
[/quote]
Sacramental validity depends on the intention to consummate the marriage, if not the consummation itself. The same logic follows.

[Guest JeffCR07]

This question seems to me to make the mistake of assuming that theology is retroactive, which it is not. Sacramentality did not exist prior to Christ, and so could not have been applicable to the marriage of Joseph and Mary. Rather, their marriage must be understood within the Judaic legal context and, as such, consummation was not an necessary in order for a marriage to be valid.

To expect that the marriage of Mary and Joseph would have to be a sacramental marriage is the same as expecting Abraham to undergo a particular judgment immediately upon his death. Neither of these two expectations hold, because they are attempting to apply theological categories and principles that are only made possible at a chronologically later period.

Your Brother In Christ,

Jeff

[aalpha1989]

I don't really have anything to add, except that that was a really good question that I had never thought about, and had some really good answers. You guys are awesome.

[Theologian in Training]

Now, how come I did not get these responses to my question? It would have been much easier to synthesize and explain....I guess it pays to know how to phrase a question... :

[Resurrexi]

[quote]Sacramental validity depends on the intention to consummate the marriage, if not the consummation itself. The same logic follows.[/quote]

Yes, but Mary wouldn't have had the intention to consummate since she was to be a virgin forever.
[quote]
This question seems to me to make the mistake of assuming that theology is retroactive, which it is not. Sacramentality did not exist prior to Christ, and so could not have been applicable to the marriage of Joseph and Mary.
[/quote]

I see, but don't even natural non-sacramental marriages, in order to be valid, need to be consummated?

[quote]
To expect that the marriage of Mary and Joseph would have to be a sacramental marriage is the same as expecting Abraham to undergo a particular judgment immediately upon his death.
[/quote]

Would not Abraham have undergone particular judgement after his death, but the verdict been Limbo of the Father's till the Coming of the Messias, rather than Hell or Purgatory till later or Heaven?

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote name='StThomasMore' post='1121913' date='Nov 16 2006, 07:12 PM']
Yes, but Mary wouldn't have had the intention to consummate since she was to be a virgin forever.[/quote]
And I'm saying that since it wasn't a sacramental marriage, that intention wasn't necessary.

[quote]I see, but don't even natural non-sacramental marriages, in order to be valid, need to be consummated?[/quote]

As far as I understand it, there is nothing conferred except for a sort of legal status with non-sacramental marriage. Heathen marriage would therefore depend on state regulations and Hebrew marriage would depend on the regulations of the law of Moses, and, while I could be wrong, I don't think the law mentions anything about consummation.

[Resurrexi]

[quote name='Raphael']As far as I understand it, there is nothing conferred except for a sort of legal status with non-sacramental marriage. Heathen marriage would therefore depend on state regulations and Hebrew marriage would depend on the regulations of the law of Moses, and, while I could be wrong, I don't think the law mentions anything about consummation.[/quote]

[quote name='Catechism of Pope St. Pius X']1 Q. What is the sacrament of Matrimony?
A. Matrimony is a sacrament, instituted by our Lord Jesus Christ, which creates a holy and indissoluble union between a man and woman, and gives them grace to love one another holily and to bring up their children as Christians.

2 Q. By whom was Matrimony instituted?
A. [b]Matrimony was instituted by God Himself in the Garden of Paradise[/b], and was raised to the dignity of a sacrament by Jesus Christ in the New Law.

3 Q. Has the sacrament of Matrimony any special signification?
A. The sacrament of Matrimony signifies the indissoluble union of Jesus Christ with the Church, His Spouse, and our holy Mother.

4 Q. Why do we say that the bond of marriage is indissoluble?
A. [b]We say that the bond of marriage is indissoluble or that it cannot be dissolved except by the death of either husband or wife, because God so ordained from the beginning[/b] and so Jesus Christ our Lord solemnly proclaimed.

5 Q. Can the contract be separated from the sacrament in Christian marriage?
A. No, in marriage among Christians the contract cannot be separated from the sacrament, because, for Christians, marriage is nothing else than the natural contract itself, raised by Jesus Christ to the dignity of a sacrament.[/quote]

Edited November 17, 2006 by StThomasMore

[jswranch]

[quote name='StThomasMore' post='1121085' date='Nov 15 2006, 04:39 PM']
How would the Blessed Virgin Mary and St. Joseph's marriage have been valid if it was never consummated?
[/quote]

Yes. They knew they could not consummate the marriage ahead of time. We allow marriages to couples who cannot have sex, as long at it is known by both. Reading the 'Protoevangelium of James' helps with this.

[Thy Geekdom Come]

STM, as you will notice, your source says that matrimony became a sacrament under the new covenant. That means that matters of sacramental validity do not bear on the marriage between Joseph and Mary. My point still stands. There wasn't a matter of consummation validating marriage in the Old Covenant, as far as I know.

If you're going to cite sources, please explain what you think they mean. I can't read your mind. Since the sources you quoted are irrelevant to the point, I can only assume that your meaning was also irrelevant, unless you explain why you think the quote is relevant.

[Resurrexi]

Alright, what I meant is that the quote seems to say that the Sacrament was divinely instituted and would therefore have to be consummated just like a marriage today would be regardless of local laws.