Toys For Tots Turns Down Jesus Doll

[dUSt]

Good for the marines and toys for tots for rejecting this. This is a "born again" Jesus doll, so is an attempt to lead people into Protestantism anyway.

This is why I am generally against mixing religion with politics or government--unless we can guarantee that is true teaching from Christ's church, I say keep it separate.

[Sojourner]

From the Open Mic thread:
[quote name='Sojourner' post='1120229' date='Nov 14 2006, 07:25 PM']
As I said in the thread I started on this topic earlier today, I think the TFT people made the right decision, given the nature of TFT. There are many organizations that would be a better fit for this company to donate to, as has already been mentioned.

But aside from that, I find myself a little uncomfortable with a Jesus doll in general ... and, I suppose, with toys based on biblical themes in general. Maybe I'm being too much of a stickler, but it just seems that it's important that we remember that the people whose stories are in the Bible are more than just characters -- they were real people who lived and loved and demonstrated faith in God and so on. It seems ... belittling to turn them into action figures, even Bible-verse spouting action figures.
[/quote]
[quote name='homeschoolmom' post='1120533' date='Nov 15 2006, 07:26 AM']
While I don't think there's anything wrong with the Jesus doll, per se, I probably wouldn't get one for my kid. The biblical action figures I disagree with you about completely. Yes, they were real people who really put their faith in God (or didn't, in some cases)... I think it's good for kids to act out those stories, over and over again. Roll playing is a great way for kids to learn. Would I want them to mix them in with Spidey and the Scooby Doo gang? No. But I don't think they are inherently wrong, either.

Sunday School teachers all over the place use flannel graphs to tell a story and then let the kids use the pieces to retell the story (for their own enjoyment). Kids dress up in costumes of the saints and retell their stories-- St. George, St. Joan and St. Michael being chief among them-- High action. I don't believe this deminishes their dignity. Children learn through play. Do you have a problem with this? [url="http://stores.catholicmontessori.com/Categories.bok?category=Miniature+Mass+Kit"]http://stores.catholicmontessori.com/Categ...iature+Mass+Kit[/url] or this [url="http://stores.catholicmontessori.com/Categories.bok?category=Child-Size+Vestments"]http://stores.catholicmontessori.com/Categ...-Size+Vestments[/url]
[/quote]
Yeah, I spent a long time in Sunday School too. I'm pretty familiar with flannelgraphs and so on. Like I said, maybe I'm being too much of a stickler here ... All I know is that a Jesus doll REALLY makes me uncomfortable. At the same time, I know plenty of people who as adults think of Bible stories as cutesy fairy tales, child's play. So I have to wonder if some of that feeling now as adults is in part spurred by cartoonish portrayals of Biblical figures.

If I grow up watching surrounded by cartoon characters, what separates Pokemon from Noah? If there is no difference in the portrayal of secular and religious stories, if we make no material distinction between the two, do kids really make that distinction on their own? I'm no expert in education ... but the attitudes I see in many adults leads me to think that doesn't happen, and that all too often kids grow up and cast off the stories of biblical saints as being childish stories, thereby missing the great examples of faith we're given.

[quote name='KnightofChrist' post='1120490' date='Nov 15 2006, 01:02 AM']
Your not thinking as a child would think now are you? Your thinking as an adult would seeing an annoying child play with some silly toy.

Think as a child for just a moment would you please.

Your Jesus doll is not just some doll, to you, he is your best friend, your buddy, the one that protects you from the dark at night, your sidekick on all your adventures both imagery and real, always willing to have tea with you and your kitty, or 007 comandos (save the saint from the devil) with you and your dog, beside you when you are sick, happy when you are happy, sad that you are sad, held tight to your heart when you are afraid. He is your bestest friend ever and you love Him very very much.
But you've grown out of wonderland, and can not see the love and respect a child would give to her doll of Christ. All you see is some annoying kid tossing around a silly doll.
For some kids maybe your right, but for the most I believe you are wrong. Not every kid throws out his best friend just because he grows up.
One is for a child the other for an adult.
It is entirely possible to teach a child the proper respect and reverence for Christ and use a doll of Christ to do that.
[/quote]
As I said above, I am no expert in education, but I have spent an awful lot of time with kids.

I think what we're talking about is striking at a balance between the immanence and eminence of Christ. On one hand, he is intimately involved with the workings of the universe; on the other he is superior to all of creation. If we lean too far the one way, we get “My buddy Jesus” who (to a kid) is no different than the invisible best friend with super powers. Lean too far the other way and you end up with Deism – a God who’s wholly uninvolved with the operations. I’d argue that a Jesus doll is too buddy-buddy, and goes too far in the direction of creating a flat, one-dimensional depiction of Jesus.

Edited November 15, 2006 by Sojourner

[Sojourner]

[quote name='homeschoolmom' post='1120533' date='Nov 15 2006, 07:26 AM']
While I don't think there's anything wrong with the Jesus doll, per se, I probably wouldn't get one for my kid. The biblical action figures I disagree with you about completely. Yes, they were real people who really put their faith in God (or didn't, in some cases)... I think it's good for kids to act out those stories, over and over again. Roll playing is a great way for kids to learn. Would I want them to mix them in with Spidey and the Scooby Doo gang? No. But I don't think they are inherently wrong, either.

Sunday School teachers all over the place use flannel graphs to tell a story and then let the kids use the pieces to retell the story (for their own enjoyment). Kids dress up in costumes of the saints and retell their stories-- St. George, St. Joan and St. Michael being chief among them-- High action. I don't believe this deminishes their dignity. Children learn through play. Do you have a problem with this? [url="http://stores.catholicmontessori.com/Categories.bok?category=Miniature+Mass+Kit"]http://stores.catholicmontessori.com/Categ...iature+Mass+Kit[/url] or this [url="http://stores.catholicmontessori.com/Categories.bok?category=Child-Size+Vestments"]http://stores.catholicmontessori.com/Categ...-Size+Vestments[/url]
[/quote]
I answered in the debate table ... it's way too confusing to keep up with two threads on the same topic. I only have so many brain cells and the ones that are still functioning are growing more valuable by the moment ...

[quote name='dUSt' post='1120629' date='Nov 15 2006, 10:01 AM']
Good for the marines and toys for tots for rejecting this. This is a "born again" Jesus doll, so is an attempt to lead people into Protestantism anyway.

This is why I am generally against mixing religion with politics or government--unless we can guarantee that is true teaching from Christ's church, I say keep it separate.
[/quote]
You're such a liberal.

[homeschoolmom]

Merged into one.

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='Sojourner' post='1120644' date='Nov 15 2006, 12:15 PM']
I think what we're talking about is striking at a balance between the immanence and eminence of Christ. On one hand, he is intimately involved with the workings of the universe; on the other he is superior to all of creation. If we lean too far the one way, we get “My buddy Jesus” who (to a kid) is no different than the invisible best friend with super powers. Lean too far the other way and you end up with Deism – a God who’s wholly uninvolved with the operations. I’d argue that a Jesus doll is too buddy-buddy, and goes too far in the direction of creating a flat, one-dimensional depiction of Jesus.
[/quote]


This all depends on the Teacher, not the teaching tool. A child's understanding of Christ too far one way or another all depends on the teachings of the parent, with or without a doll. Both extremes could happen, the Jesus Doll could just be some toy of many and be thrown away or the Jesus doll could be too buddy-buddy super hero, [u]but only if the Parent fails in teaching Christ's truth to the child.[/u]


The parent can use a Jesus doll to teach Christ's salvation to their child just as well as use a child's "My first Jesus Story" book, or "My Catholic Coloring Book" even some catholic cartoon the kid watches on EWTN.

Your worries depend on the parent not on the doll.

[homeschoolmom]

[quote name='Sojourner' post='1120644' date='Nov 15 2006, 11:15 AM']I’d argue that a Jesus doll is too buddy-buddy, and goes too far in the direction of creating a flat, one-dimensional depiction of Jesus.
[/quote]
I dare say that you mean "two dimenstional" depiction of Jesus... otherwise He's a line.

[Romans1513]

[quote name='KnightofChrist' post='1120490' date='Nov 15 2006, 03:02 AM']
Your not thinking as a child would think now are you? Your thinking as an adult would seeing an annoying child play with some silly toy.

Think as a child for just a moment would you please.

Your Jesus doll is not just some doll, to you, he is your best friend, your buddy, the one that protects you from the dark at night, your sidekick on all your adventures both imagery and real, always willing to have tea with you and your kitty, or 007 comandos (save the saint from the devil) with you and your dog, beside you when you are sick, happy when you are happy, sad that you are sad, held tight to your heart when you are afraid. He is your bestest friend ever and you love Him very very much.
But you've grown out of wonderland, and can not see the love and respect a child would give to her doll of Christ. All you see is some annoying kid tossing around a silly doll.
For some kids maybe your right, but for the most I believe you are wrong. Not every kid throws out his best friend just because he grows up.
One is for a child the other for an adult.
It is entirely possible to teach a child the proper respect and reverence for Christ and use a doll of Christ to do that.
If I gave my nephew a doll of Christ, using it as a teaching tool for Christ, I would not be a Knight of Christ? Please do explain
[/quote]

Yikes you make me sound old... lol. "I'l never grow-up, never grow up, never grow u-up, not me!" (its Neverland, not wonderland for me!)

Ok off my Peter Pan kick...

Sure, I still have some of my favorite dolls from when I was little. I loved some of those dolls so much! But at the same time, they were just dolls. We don't want to reduce Jesus to a doll do we?

I agree that some of these kids will love their Jesus dolls and treat them with respect, because their parents would teach them that. However, not all will, especially if TfT had given them out to anyone. And trust me, I've worked with kids, and I know what they can do to their toys. And I don't see them as annoying little kids. Its just what happens with kids and toys. lol.


I'm sorry, the idea of a Jesus doll just makes me uncomfortable. I don't think it shows respect as much as we should.

~Katie

[Sojourner]

[quote name='homeschoolmom' post='1120743' date='Nov 15 2006, 12:04 PM']
I dare say that you mean "two dimenstional" depiction of Jesus... otherwise He's a line.
[/quote]
... yes

[Azriel]

I just heard that the decision was reversed .... and they will be taking the donation.

Anyone else hear this? Off to get a link .....

[dUSt]

[quote name='Azriel' post='1121237' date='Nov 15 2006, 07:29 PM']
I just heard that the decision was reversed .... and they will be taking the donation.

Anyone else hear this? Off to get a link .....
[/quote]
NOOOOO!!!!!

Little poor Catholic kids will be lead away from the church with their toy Jesus doll spewing heretical lies!

[Sojourner]

[quote name='dUSt' post='1121391' date='Nov 15 2006, 09:10 PM']
NOOOOO!!!!!

Little poor Catholic kids will be lead away from the church with their toy Jesus doll spewing heretical lies!
[/quote]
I like you.


In a totally platonic way, but still.

[WillT]

[quote name='KnightofChrist' post='1120721' date='Nov 15 2006, 01:52 PM']
This all depends on the Teacher, not the teaching tool. A child's understanding of Christ too far one way or another all depends on the teachings of the parent, with or without a doll. Both extremes could happen, the Jesus Doll could just be some toy of many and be thrown away or the Jesus doll could be too buddy-buddy super hero, [u]but only if the Parent fails in teaching Christ's truth to the child.[/u]
The parent can use a Jesus doll to teach Christ's salvation to their child just as well as use a child's "My first Jesus Story" book, or "My Catholic Coloring Book" even some catholic cartoon the kid watches on EWTN.

Your worries depend on the parent not on the doll.
[/quote]

So then how would giving them out to kids whose parents may not even be Christian, let alone know enough about Jesus to teach thier children, be a good idea?

[Socrates]

[quote name='Sojourner' post='1120479' date='Nov 15 2006, 02:07 AM']
I am really going to try to respond to this charitably.

I don't know why you felt compelled to make this statement. I don't believe I have ever stated that I am "against anything at all religious in public" or even words to that effect. If you believe I have made such assertions, then by all means, prove me wrong. If you cannot find such a statement, then please retract this, and I would appreciate it if you would refrain from speaking for me in the future.
[/quote]
I am referring to the consistant patterns of your posts since I have been on these boards. Correct me if I'm wrong, but whenever there's a debate concerning religious expression in public, it seems you always take the "secularist" position (though usually giving "religious" reasons for doing so.) Most recently, you seemed upset that people were happy about department store clerks saying "Merry Christmas" rather than the p.c. "Happy Holidays." Last year around Easter you were arguing in support of a state government policy against employees having "Happy Easter" signs at their work space.
And it seems you have taken similar positions with similar issues, but maybe I'm just getting old and senile.

Sorry if I'd made a bad judgment there, but all I have to go on concerning your positions on such issues are your phatmass posts, in which you seem to very rarely take any position which would put you at odds with the ACLU. You seem to have general issues with the "religious right" and feel compelled to oppose them at every turn. But then again, maybe I'm wrong. All I can go on are your words here.

[quote name='dUSt' post='1121391' date='Nov 15 2006, 11:10 PM']
NOOOOO!!!!!

Little poor Catholic kids will be lead away from the church with their toy Jesus doll spewing heretical lies!
[/quote]
Those Bible quotes are heretical lies?? Guess I'll be forced to go join Budge's Baptist congregation then!

[Paladin D]

Just give them Turbo Man dolls.


(If you haven't seen Arnold Schwarzenegger's [b]Jingle All The Way[/b], you won't get the humor of the above sentence).

[Sojourner]

[quote name='Socrates' post='1121409' date='Nov 15 2006, 09:51 PM']
I am referring to the consistant patterns of your posts since I have been on these boards. Correct me if I'm wrong, but whenever there's a debate concerning religious expression in public, it seems you always take the "secularist" position (though usually giving "religious" reasons for doing so.) Most recently, you seemed upset that people were happy about department store clerks saying "Merry Christmas" rather than the p.c. "Happy Holidays." Last year around Easter you were arguing in support of a state government policy against employees having "Happy Easter" signs at their work space.
And it seems you have taken similar positions with similar issues, but maybe I'm just getting old and senile.

Sorry if I'd made a bad judgment there, but all I have to go on concerning your positions on such issues are your phatmass posts, in which you seem to very rarely take any position which would put you at odds with the ACLU. You seem to have general issues with the "religious right" and feel compelled to oppose them at every turn. But then again, maybe I'm wrong. All I can go on are your words here.
[/quote]
OK so I had a response here that I think wasn't all that bad ... but, I am reluctant to continue along this line of discussion at this point in this forum. I would like to defend myself, but I don't feel I can do so in this particular forum. Homeschoolmom, in the folowing post, suggests PMs, but I am not too keen on that either because that medium lends itself too easily to ugly arguments.

Perhaps we can just agree to disagree.

Edited November 16, 2006 by Sojourner