Before We Are Baptized...

[CatholicCid]

I think the "those who die with original sin" does not include those who would be freed from original sin through baptism, baptism by blood, and baptism by desire.

Is it infallible? No idea.

[Resurrexi]

[quote]"it is an infallible Catholic teaching that those who die with original sin are incapable of entering heaven"[/quote]

The following are three inffallable quotes from the Popes and Oecumenical Councils, both of which are organs of Infallibility.

[quote name='Pope Eugene IV's Bull Cantate Domino' date=' AD 1441']The Most Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that none of those existing outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans, also Jews, heretics, and schismatics can ever be partakers of eternal life, but that they are to go into the eternal fire 'which was prepared for the devil and his angels' (Mt. 25:41) unless before death they are joined with Her... No one, let his almsgiving be as great as it may, no one, even if he pour out his blood for the Name of Christ can be saved unless they abide within the bosom and unity of the Catholic Church.[/quote]

[quote name='The Fourth General Council of the Lateran' date=' AD 1215']There is indeed one universal church of the faithful, outside of which nobody at all is saved, in which Jesus Christ is both priest and sacrifice.[/quote]

[quote name='Pope Boniface VIII's Bull Unam Sanctam' date=' AD 1302']Now, therefore, we declare, say, determine and pronounce that for every human creature it is necessary for salvation to be subject to the authority of the Roman Pontiff.[/quote]

From the Catechism:

[quote name='The Catechism of Pope St. Pius X']12 Q. Why such anxiety to have infants receive Baptism?
A. There should be the greatest anxiety to have infants baptised because, on account of their tender age, they are exposed to many dangers of death, and cannot be saved without Baptism.
16 Q. Is Baptism necessary to salvation?
A. Baptism is absolutely necessary to salvation, for our Lord has expressly said: "Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the Kingdom of God."
17 Q. Can the absence of Baptism be supplied in any other way?
A. The absence of Baptism can be supplied by martyrdom, which is called Baptism of Blood, or by an act of perfect love of God, or of contrition, along with the desire, at least implicit, of Baptism, and this is called Baptism of Desire.[/quote]

Edited November 15, 2006 by StThomasMore

[CatholicCid]

I think more of the Boniface's Bull should be looked at a little more...

This authority, however, (though it has been given to man and is exercised by man), is not human but rather divine, granted to Peter by a divine word and reaffirmed to him (Peter) and his successors by the One Whom Peter confessed, the Lord saying to Peter himself, 'Whatsoever you shall bind on earth, shall be bound also in Heaven' etc., [Mt 16:19]. [b]Therefore whoever resists this power thus ordained by God, resists the ordinance of God [Rom 13:2][/b], unless he invent like Manicheus two beginnings, which is false and judged by us heretical, since according to the testimony of Moses, it is not in the beginnings but in the beginning that God created heaven and earth [Gen 1:1].


Infact, Wikipedia says it better so I'm going to be lazy and quote from there (which quotes from the CCC lol)

[quote]
"Outside the Church there is no salvation" - How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers? Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body:
"Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it" (Second Vatican Council, Lumen Gentium, 14).
This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:
"Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience — those too may achieve eternal salvation" (Second Vatican Council, Lumen Gentium, 16).
"Although in ways known to himself God can lead those who, through no fault of their own, are ignorant of the Gospel, to that faith without which it is impossible to please him, the Church still has the obligation and also the sacred right to evangelize all men" (Second Vatican Council, Ad Gentes, 1).
It is therefore in this sense that the Catholic Church interprets the following statements by Councils and Popes:

Fourth Lateran Council (1215): "There is but one universal Church of the faithful, outside which no one at all is saved."

Pope Boniface VIII, Bull Unam Sanctam (1302): "We declare, say, define, and pronounce that it is absolutely necessary for the salvation of every human creature to be subject to the Roman Pontiff."

Pope Eugene IV, Bull Cantate Domino (1441): "The most Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that none of those existing outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews and heretics and schismatics, can have a share in life eternal; but that they will go into the eternal fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels, unless before death they are joined with Her; and that so important is the unity of this ecclesiastical body that only those remaining within this unity can profit by the sacraments of the Church unto salvation, and they alone can receive an eternal recompense for their fasts, their almsgivings, their other works of Christian piety and the duties of a Christian soldier. No one, let his almsgiving be as great as it may, no one, even if he pour out his blood for the Name of Christ, can be saved, unless he remain within the bosom and the unity of the Catholic Church."

Pope Pelagius II (578-590): "Consider the fact that whoever has not been in the peace and unity of the Church cannot have the Lord. ...Although given over to flames and fires, they burn, or, thrown to wild beasts, they lay down their lives, there will not be (for them) that crown of faith but the punishment of faithlessness. ...Such a one can be slain, he cannot be crowned. ...[If] slain outside the Church, he cannot attain the rewards of the Church" (Denzinger 246-247)

Saint Gregory the Great (590-604), Moralia: "Now the holy Church universal proclaims that God cannot be truly worshipped saving within herself, asserting that all they that are without her shall never be saved."

Pope Innocent III (1198-1216): "With our hearts we believe and with our lips we confess but one Church, not that of the heretics, but the Holy Roman Catholic and Apostolic Church, outside which we believe that no one is saved" (Denzinger 423).

Pope Leo XII (1823-1829), Encyclical Ubi Primum: "We profess that there is no salvation outside the Church. ... For the Church is the pillar and ground of the truth. With reference to those words Augustine says: `If any man be outside the Church he will be excluded from the number of sons, and will not have God for Father since he has not the Church for mother.'"

Pope Gregory XVI (1831-1846), Encyclical, Summo Jugiter: "It is not possible to worship God truly except in Her; all who are outside Her will not be saved."

Pope Pius IX (1846-1878), "It must be held by faith that outside the Apostolic Roman Church, no one can be saved; that this is the only ark of salvation; that he who shall not have entered therein will perish in the flood" (Denzinger 1647).

Pope Leo XIII (1878-1903), Encyclical Annum Ingressi Sumus: "This is our last lesson to you; receive it, engrave it in your minds, all of you: by God's commandment salvation is to be found nowhere but in the Church."

idem, Encyclical Sapientiae Christianae:"He scatters and gathers not who gathers not with the Church and with Jesus Christ, and all who fight not jointly with Him and with the Church are in very truth contending against God."

Pope Pius X (1903-1914), Encyclical Jucunda Sane: "It is our duty to recall to everyone great and small, as the Holy Pontiff Gregory did in ages past, the absolute necessity which is ours, to have recourse to this Church to effect our eternal salvation."

Pope Benedict XV (1914-1922), Encyclical Ad Beatissimi Apostolorum: "Such is the nature of the Catholic faith that it does not admit of more or less, but must be held as a whole, or as a whole rejected: This is the Catholic faith, which unless a man believe faithfully and firmly, he cannot be saved."

Pope Pius XI (1922-1939), Encyclical Mortalium Animos: "The Catholic Church alone is keeping the true worship. This is the font of truth, this is the house of faith, this is the temple of God; if any man enter not here, or if any man go forth from it, he is a stranger to the hope of life and salvation. ... Furthermore, in this one Church of Christ, no man can be or remain who does not accept, recognize and obey the authority and supremacy of Peter and his legitimate successors."

Pope Pius XII (1939-1958), Allocution to the Gregorian University (17 October 1953): "By divine mandate the interpreter and guardian of the Scriptures, and the depository of Sacred Tradition living within her, the Church alone is the entrance to salvation: She alone, by herself, and under the protection and guidance of the Holy Spirit, is the source of truth."

Second Vatican Council, Dogmatic Constitution Lumen gentium, 14: "They could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it, or to remain in it."
[/quote]

[Aloysius]

All who enter heaven must receive the effects of baptism in some way. the only way we know of without doubt is baptism-- the ordinary way. our hope for the unbaptized is a hope that there exists some extra-ordinary way by which they receive the effects of baptism. If one does not receive the effects of baptism in any way, they cannot enter heaven. It is thus either limbo or straight out hell for them.

Of course, it is certain that "limbo" exists, insofar as "limbo" means "edge", since we know certainly that there are different levels of hell, we know that there is an outside edge of the least punishment. I would even say by logic: there's no reason not to assume that the least-punished of hell are punished only by separation from God and not by any active pains of punishment. The question is whether the unbaptized who are not culpable for actual sin are sent to the edge of hell; which of course, barring some extra-ordinary means of God, they must be. And then, of course, is the question of the nature of the edge of hell, whether it is indeed solely the punishment of separation from God or if there is other punishment, or even perhaps less punihsment (perhaps they are not even totally separated from God).

it's all a question of what the nature of the edge of Hell (Limbo) is. because there is an edge of Hell (Limbo), that is certain.

[Matty_boy]

Just because the Pope said something doesn't mean it is infallible teaching of the Catholic Church. He must be speaking Ex Cathedra or "from the chair", and all of Catholicism must adhere to those teachings. None of the Popes have spoken Ex Cathedra about limbo.

Back to the main question. Wouldn't purgatory negate the necessity of limbo? Wouldn't God's mercy allow those who are not fit for hell to enter heaven? It seems like either a person chooses hell, then everyone else goes to heaven either immediately or after a time in purgatory. It's hard to imagine that some people can't even get there through purgatory, but God just puts them in limbo because there's no other way.

Furthermore, this business about people dying without baptism going to limbo or even hell is rediculous. I have friends who aren't baptized because their parents raised them athiest or agnostic. If my friend dies, it's not his choosing that he wasn't baptized. He'd never even seen a bible. Ignorance of salvific means does not ensure one's ticket to hell.

Hell is something that a person chooses. If they consciously reject God, even until death, they reject Heaven.

[Aloysius]

The Universal Constant teaching of the Church is that original sin does indeed exclude a person from heaven. One who was not baptized in an ordinary way may be given the effects of baptism in some way known only to God-- but they must receive the effects of baptism in some way. original sin certainly keeps you out of heaven, however, otherwise Christ's sacrifice was unnecessary.

you're pretty arrogant to call it "ridiculous". hell is "chosen" in the sense that the state a person's soul is in when they die is the state they will be in for eternity-- if a soul has original sin then that soul will "choose" to be seperated from God; it's not your average ordinary temporal choice-- it's a pure act of the soul in the state it is in. if a soul is in the state of original sin then it flees from the presence of God. it doesn't get a second chance to re-think anything: it's state determines what it does.

it is an infallible teaching of the Church that unless one is freed from original sin one cannot enter heaven. that's at the center of the gospel message: not believing that makes you cease to be a Christian. God may grant a soul the effects of baptism in some way not known to us-- but the only way we know of is baptism and we have a sacred obligation to convert and baptize everyone otherwise we cannot be assured they have any chance of salvation.

you make heaven seem as if it's the default-- it is not. no human being merits heaven; it is something extra-ordinary. it is not just "don't do anything bad and you get into heaven" and it is not just "don't consciously reject heaven and you get it"... these ideas are unknown to the Christian mind.

the unbaptized have a chance, like I said, if God chooses to grant them the effects of baptism through some extra-ordinary means. this should never be presumed, it is to be hoped for.

all of this is merely the position of the Catechism of the Catholic Church, as it is understood in continuity with the constant teaching of the Church. It is heretical to hold that original sin does not exclude one from heaven. It is heretical to hold that baptism is not necessary for salvation; and that whoever does not somehow receive the benefits of baptism in some way will not enter heaven. In the possibility that such a person does not receive the benefits of baptism-- a possibility which must be admitted because except for some extra-ordinary means God has never revealed to us this is what will happen-- they will descend into hell. perhaps the edge of hell (limbo). again, there is hope that through some extra-ordinary means they might receive the effets of baptism... but it is a hope and not something that ought to be presumed.

[Guest JeffCR07]

It should also be pointed out that St. Anselm of Canterbury's entire [i]Cur Deus Homo[/i] can be understood as a rejection of the "ransom theory" - the concept that somehow Satan "owned" us and Christ had to "buy us" from him. It is a theory that is both spiritually bankrupt and theologically impossible.

[Aloysius]

but it is an analogy which does indeed teach well about the state of our souls and their eternal fate prior to Christ's salvitic grace.

[rkwright]

[quote name='Matty_boy' post='1120545' date='Nov 15 2006, 08:50 AM']
Furthermore, this business about people dying without baptism going to limbo or even hell is rediculous. I have friends who aren't baptized because their parents raised them athiest or agnostic. If my friend dies, it's not his choosing that he wasn't baptized. He'd never even seen a bible. Ignorance of salvific means does not ensure one's ticket to hell.

Hell is something that a person chooses. If they consciously reject God, even until death, they reject Heaven.
[/quote]

Haven't posted on here in a while, but I've still been reading. This is a topic that I think many Catholics and Christians are wishy washy on in our time and it frightens me a bit.

The facts are these; Orginal Sin is [u]real[/u]. By the sin of Adam, it is God's completely [u]just punishment [/u] to send all of us to hell. As humans, and sons of Adam, we all deserve hell, and God would be justified in it. Like you say, Hell is something a person chooses, and through Adam we've all chosen Hell.

Christ came to save us from our sins, including and maybe even more importantly, our Orginal Sin. Through baptism we are washed away of all our sins including orginal sin. Why do you think we baptise a baby who has never 'committed' any sins? It is to save them from Orginal Sin. So many people today merely refer to baptism as a 'welcoming into the community' (which is accurate) but leave out the part about salvation.

To think that orginal sin has no real effects, then we could say anyone could 'earn' their way into heaven by being good which is heresy (pleagianism? sp someone?)

Limbo is not a doctrine, but the Church also does not grant a 'free pass' to those killed who weren't baptised. It doesn't work that way. The only thing we can do is rely on the mercy of God for those.

EDIT: I read Al's post a few above mine... His is much better written than mine, but we're pointing to the same thing... sorry to be redundant

Edited November 16, 2006 by rkwright