Before We Are Baptized...

[Matty_boy]

I just found this in the Q & A about Catholicism but couldn't repond because it was closed.

We are not the "property of Satan" before we are baptized. We are fallen and born in a state of original sin, but if we die before baptism, Satan does not take us to hell, and we certainly do NOT go to limbo. We are God's property and are created inherently good with a fallen nature.

[Balthazor]

SO you are basically saying we end up in the cosmic "lost and found" box with a pair of broken sunglasses, two chapsticks and a torn coin purse?

Could you clarify....this is an interesting concept.

[Winchester]

All Torn Coin Purses Go to Heaven.

It's Disney.

[WillT]

[quote name='Winchester' post='1119766' date='Nov 14 2006, 01:08 PM']
All Torn Coin Purses Go to Heaven.

It's Disney.
[/quote]
Chapstick, however, is just a tool of Satan. Therefore it would be in Hell, not the lost and found.

[Aloysius]

it is an infallible Catholic teaching that those who die with original sin are incapable of entering heaven. We have hope that God may apply the effects of baptism to rid souls of their original sin if they die without baptism; but those who die and never receive the effects of baptism in any way do indeed descend into hell because of their original sin, their fallen nature.

but indeed, without baptism or its effects, fallen humanity is the property of satan: he won us by convincing us to disobey God in the Fall.

[Resurrexi]

[quote]
We are not the "property of Satan" before we are baptized. We are fallen and born in a state of original sin, but if we die before baptism, Satan does not take us to hell, and we certainly do NOT go to limbo. [/quote]

If you die without baptism of water, blood or desire/invincalbe ignorance, then yes you rot in hell forever. And we have the right to believe that unbaptised babies go to limbo, and it is a Domga that the souls of the just who died before the Ressurection went to Limbo until the harrowing of Hell.

[quote name='The Catechism of St. Pius X'] 1 Q. What are we taught in the Fifth Article: He descended into hell; the third day He rose again from the dead?
A. The Fifth Article of the Creed teaches us that the Soul of Jesus Christ, on being separated from His Body, descended to the Limbo of the holy Fathers, and that on the third day it became united once more to His Body, never to be parted from it again.

2 Q. What is here meant by hell?
A. Hell here means the Limbo of the holy Fathers, that is, the place where the souls of the just were detained, in expectation of redemption through Jesus Christ.

3 Q. Why were not the souls of the Holy Fathers admitted into heaven before the death of Jesus Christ?
A. The souls of the holy Fathers were not admitted into heaven before the death of Jesus Christ, because heaven was closed by the sin of Adam, and it was but fitting that Jesus Christ, who reopened it by His death, should be the first to enter it. [/quote]

As to the original question:

[quote name='The Catechism of St. Pius X']
42 Q. How is it possible for original sin to be transmitted to all men?
A. Original sin is transmitted to all men because God, having conferred sanctifying grace and other supernatural gifts on the human race in Adam, on the condition that Adam should not disobey Him; and Adam having disobeyed, as head and father of the human race, rendered human nature rebellious against God. And hence, human nature is transmitted to all the descendants of Adam in a state of rebellion against God, and deprived of divine grace and other gifts. [/quote]

[RC_]

"Homer's soul is legally the property of Marge Simpson..."

[Balthazor]

I wonder if that would work.......Because if it can. Then I am sooo good!!!!

[93 Phillies]

I disagree with this concept. So you think people of other religions cannot go to Heaven?

[Katholikos]

[quote name='93 Phillies' post='1120179' date='Nov 14 2006, 08:29 PM']
I disagree with this concept. So you think people of other religions cannot go to Heaven?
[/quote]No. The only way to be SURE you're going to heaven is to be Catholic and faithfully follow the teachings of the Church founded by Christ for the salvation of the world. But others MAY go to heaven. See the Catechism of the Catholic Church, paragraphs 836 - 848.

[url="http://www.scborromeo.org/index2.htm"]http://www.scborromeo.org/index2.htm[/url]
click on "Catechism"

Edited November 15, 2006 by Katholikos

[Katholikos]

[quote name='Katholikos' post='1120217' date='Nov 14 2006, 09:05 PM']
No. The only way to be SURE you're going to heaven is to be Catholic and faithfully follow the teachings of the Church founded by Christ for the salvation of the world. But others MAY go to heaven. See the Catechism of the Catholic Church, paragraphs 836 - 848.

[url="http://www.scborromeo.org/index2.htm"]http://www.scborromeo.org/index2.htm[/url]
click on "Catechism"[/quote]

Limbo is theological speculation, not doctrine.

CCC 1261 As regards children who have died without baptism, the Church can only entrust them to the mercy of God, as she does in her funeral rites for them.

==========================
Blessed Father Damien, pray for us!

[Matty_boy]

It is absolutely untrue that babies going to limbo is infallible church teaching.

CCC 1261 As regards children who have died without baptism, the Church can only entrust them to the mercy of God, as she does in her funeral rites for them.

God is merciful and as a priest once told me "We have no proof that anyone has ever died and gone to hell." That is not to say that there aren't people in hell, but the accusation that people who die without being baptized "rot in hell" is a scathing judgement that I am definitely not comfortable making, as should none of you.

Be merciful, just as (also) your Father is merciful. Stop judging and you will not be judged. Stop condemning and you will not be condemned. Forgive and you will be forgiven. Give and gifts will be given to you; a good measure, packed together, shaken down, and overflowing, will be poured into your lap. [b]For the measure with which you measure will in return be measured out to you.[/b]"

~Luke 6:36-38

Edited November 15, 2006 by Matty_boy

[Aloysius]

which is why STM said we have the right to believe it.

personally, I do believe in limbo for those who die in original sin but not culpable for any actual mortal sin.

[XIX]

Limbo is sorta like the zeroth layer of Hell, isn't it?


(assuming, for the sake of argument, that it exists)

[Romans1513]

[quote name='XIX' post='1120322' date='Nov 14 2006, 10:46 PM']
Limbo is sorta like the zeroth layer of Hell, isn't it?
(assuming, for the sake of argument, that it exists)
[/quote]

"zeroth"?
I thought that limbo was just a step below Heaven.

And to Aloysius...
"it is an infallible Catholic teaching that those who die with original sin are incapable of entering heaven"
Do you know where I could find this? I'm confused. I was definitely not taught this, in fact I thought the CCC names baptism of desire (or does that get rid of original sin?) as a means to Heaven. Also, don't we acknowledge hope for the unbaptized, including those who have never heard of Jesus?