Interesting Take On Sex Scandals In Evangelical Groups

[Katholikos]

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' post='1118304' date='Nov 12 2006, 04:47 PM']
I have baptist, evangelical and fundie family so I have seen too many people do the altar call routine and be "saved Amen Amen", then go back sinning.

God can change lives as he did St Paul, but even he had to work at it: working out his salvation in fear and trembling...
[/quote]When I was a Southern Baptist, there was cycle among congregants of "getting saved" by answering an altar call, "accepting Jesus Christ as personal Lord and Savior" (again), "backsliding" (again) and rededicating oneself to the Lord (again). Sometimes ppl were rebaptized during this process. I was dunked twice, a guy I know was dunked three times. Since we were Once Saved, Always Saved believers, this uncertainty about our salvation was very strange. "Believer's Assurance" was not reassuring. A good confession and absolution would have cured what ailed us.

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Blessed Father Damien, pray for us!

[mulls]

[quote]When I was a Southern Baptist, there was cycle among congregants of "getting saved" by answering an altar call, "accepting Jesus Christ as personal Lord and Savior" (again), "backsliding" (again) and rededicating oneself to the Lord (again). Sometimes ppl were rebaptized during this process. I was dunked twice, a guy I know was dunked three times. Since we were Once Saved, Always Saved believers, this uncertainty about our salvation was very strange. "Believer's Assurance" was not reassuring. [/quote]


so basically, what you're saying is that I can use the same argument against you that you constantly use against ex-catholics: [i]"You didn't know your stuff and it's your own fault, it was your responsibility to figure out the truth even if you were not taught (catechized) properly, and the reason you left was because you wanted to find a place where you felt comfortable believing what you wanted to believe."[/i]

that's the gist of it, right? call you out for making excuses, for going through the motions, and making up your own mind to choose to believe what you wanted to and call it truth?

did it work? are you convicted?

now you should probably ask me which bible i read, why i believe it's inspired, where in the bible it says that the bible is the bible, where in the bible it says it's the final authority....

then you can ask me which denomination i'm a part of, and tell me how old it is, and who started it, and how it's completely different than the 33,000 other denominations who can't agree on what the bible says....

[quote name='thessalonian' post='1118836' date='Nov 13 2006, 11:36 AM']
One arctle by the baptists themselves says that 13% of them have committed adultery.
[/quote]

what does that prove? that 13% of the people who check the religious views box on the survey "Baptist" have commited adultery.

not singling you out thess, but i find that many on phatmass have an obsession with labels, i.e. denominations.

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='mulls' post='1118972' date='Nov 13 2006, 03:46 PM']
so basically, what you're saying is that I can use the same argument against you that you constantly use against ex-catholics: [i]"You didn't know your stuff and it's your own fault, it was your responsibility to figure out the truth even if you were not taught (catechized) properly, and the reason you left was because you wanted to find a place where you felt comfortable believing what you wanted to believe."[/i]

that's the gist of it, right? call you out for making excuses, for going through the motions, and making up your own mind to choose to believe what you wanted to and call it truth?

did it work? are you convicted?

now you should probably ask me which bible i read, why i believe it's inspired, where in the bible it says that the bible is the bible, where in the bible it says it's the final authority....

then you can ask me which denomination i'm a part of, and tell me how old it is, and who started it, and how it's completely different than the 33,000 other denominations who can't agree on what the bible says....
what does that prove? that 13% of the people who check the religious views box on the survey "Baptist" have commited adultery.

not singling you out thess, but i find that many on phatmass have an obsession with labels, i.e. denominations.
[/quote]
mulls what did you think of the article?

[Katholikos]

[quote name='mulls' post='1118972' date='Nov 13 2006, 03:46 PM']
so basically, what you're saying is that I can use the same argument against you that you constantly use against ex-catholics: [i]"You didn't know your stuff and it's your own fault, it was your responsibility to figure out the truth even if you were not taught (catechized) properly, and the reason you left was because you wanted to find a place where you felt comfortable believing what you wanted to believe."[/i][/quote]Nope. I left because I [i][b]did [/b][/i] know my stuff. I grew up Baptist, but I found as a young adult that the doctrines of Sola Scriptura and Believer's Assurance (and others) couldn't stand the test of logic. I thought Christianity was based on the Bible, so I left not only Protestantism but Christianity. The only logical option was agnosticism. I didn't give Catholicism a single thought, so deep was my prejudice against it. I eventually drifted into atheism.

[quote]that's the gist of it, right? call you out for making excuses, for going through the motions, and making up your own mind to choose to believe what you wanted to and call it truth?[/quote]Nope. I just couldn't accept doctrines that [i]prima facie[/i] were illogical and untrue. I became a student of other religions -- Buddhism, Hinduism, tribal religions, etc. It was merely an academic interest. I knew nothing about the history of Christianity or the history of the Bible until years later.

[quote]did it work? are you convicted?[/quote]I convinced myself that there was no such thing as sin.

[quote]now you should probably ask me which bible i read, why i believe it's inspired, where in the bible it says that the bible is the bible, where in the bible it says it's the final authority....[/quote]Well, you're on the right track with the right questions. And there are others. St. Cyprian said something to the effect that you can't have God for a Father if you don't have the Church for a Mother. The Bible does not stand alone.

[quote]then you can ask me which denomination i'm a part of, and tell me how old it is, and who started it, and how it's completely different than the 33,000 other denominations who can't agree on what the bible says....[/quote]You got that right.

What did you think of the article Cmom posted?

Peace be with you, Mulls.
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Blessed Father Damien, pray for us!

[mulls]

I liked the article. I especially agree with the following:

[quote]The evangelical church needs to be honest and admit that prayer, accountability, Bible study, preaching from the pulpit and exorcising demons does not guarantee the end of sexual addiction or sexual sin for many people. What if the church said that much? What if evangelicals admitted that breaking bad sex habits is beyond the scope of its ability and is not a promise in Scripture?

Instead the church ought to advertise what it is best at: coming together to share our lives in community — to care for each other when we're sick, to pray for one another, to offer help when someone has a baby, to give food to the poor... What if someone said, "I'm struggling with sin," and the church said, "We can't promise you that you'll change, but we can offer you a place where you'll make friends and find meaningful work to do in spite of your struggles?"

When people say that Haggard should have been more honest with himself, I want to say that evangelical theology is guilty for his dishonesty. The promises are lies. They make a mockery of leaders who depend on the promises and find no relief. What else does a pastor do but lie when the practices he preaches don't work for him?

Christianity does not cure addiction. Christians are forgiven for sin. More importantly, Christianity is a pathway to community and caring in spite of sin. Honestly, a caring community is worth a lot in this postmodern fragmented world. Nothing to sneeze at!

If evangelicals started with the humble truth, they might not have so many sick people joining up in desperation hoping to find a magical cure for what they do in secret. In fact, the church might then become that sacred space where all are welcome, where honesty is valued and where some are helped, too.[/quote]


I do believe sin and addiction can be overcome, that the power of the Spirit can indeed break bondage. But I believe the attitude of the author is the correct one.

Amen to it.

[LuchaporElRey21]

She is flat wrong. She makes it seem like all humans can do is screw up all the time and never make any serious progress in the way of virtues, etc.

Sure, every effort we make for sexual purity in this life is limping and we will never accomplish this on earth, we can still make an attempt. And Christ IS the cure for addictions.

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='LuchaporElRey21' post='1119392' date='Nov 13 2006, 11:14 PM']
She is flat wrong. She makes it seem like all humans can do is screw up all the time and never make any serious progress in the way of virtues, etc.

Sure, every effort we make for sexual purity in this life is limping and we will never accomplish this on earth, we can still make an attempt. And Christ IS the cure for addictions.
[/quote]
who is she?

[track2004]

[quote name='LuchaporElRey21' post='1119392' date='Nov 13 2006, 11:14 PM']
She is flat wrong. She makes it seem like all humans can do is screw up all the time and never make any serious progress in the way of virtues, etc.

Sure, every effort we make for sexual purity in this life is limping and we will never accomplish this on earth, we can still make an attempt. And Christ IS the cure for addictions.
[/quote]


But isn't that what we do, who we are, screw ups? I mean we fell, we sin, we messed all of this up. I can't even really say we've made tons of progress since then. We're struggling with the same things Moses' people did: false idols, sex, murder, etc. We have laws now to punish things and our society is more advanced but really where have we gotten in the way of virtues?

Christ isn't the cure, or I don't think He is. He is a guide, a path to a more virtuous life. Just because a person has SSA and converts doesn't mean Christ will get rid of that, it gives them some way to deal with it. But even then, maybe it's not working. Being gay is more than some condition, more than something that can be fixed. Telling someone that can't have SSA anymore is like telling a straight person not to think about sex again. You can't; it's there. You can ask them to not participate or induldge, but it'll still be there.

I agree with the article. I don't know what else the church (Catholic or otherwise) can do besides tell people to pray and repent, but I hope there is something. Not just for being gay either, but for anything. In my experience with the Church, it's always felt like I was supposed to be good and holy and virtuous and got punished when I wasn't. It fells like I'm supposed to be at Point B, when I really just started at Point A and all I'm getting are vague directions on which way to go. Maybe that's where the Catholic Guilt I have comes from...

[Katholikos]

The author of the article refers to "the evangelical church." There are thousands of conflicting and competing evangelical churches. She's playing "Let's pretend."

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Blessed Father Damien, pray for us!