Secularization

[Balthazor]

Secularization is really dangerous, because of the loss of faith amoung people due to it, and also the lessening of intensity of the faith that they do have. Both of these leave a clean slate open for all kinds of things.....in many continents it is Islam that is sweeping the land, and there are other many more malicious religions that a seeker might find themselves in.

[jwangkal]

I metioned earlier that I didn't wish to lose the direction of this debate.

Clearly, what I said about our celebration of the Holy Eucharist here in East Africa gave an impression I didn't wish to create. cmotherofpirl asked for more details, and that's what i gave. But nowhere did i mension that we are better than anyone else in the world. I didn't mean to say that our way of celebration is any superior to the way it's done anywhere else on earth or in heaven. What I meant to say was that in some places in the world, the Church has allowed the use of certain gestures in the Liturgy which help the locals to express themselves in a deeper way that corresponds with their culture. (Could this be taken to be secularization?) You feel distracted when there are all these movements around you when you are at Mass, but we down here loose concentration without all these gestures.

I also didn't mean to say that its only with drums that one can express love to God.(Maybe I should have said it in my native language,and had a translator to say it in English. Maybe then it could have come out the way I wanted it. My native language is read like Latin : ) Have you ever heard of this story about Mahatma Ghandhi (read some history of India) when he said that had he been a Catholic, knowing that God existed in the tabernacle of the Church, he would never enter a Church building with shoes on his feet, and would crawl on his belly and worship God in that position. Would you say that this way of worship is any superior to any way that it's done elsewhere in the world.(maybe an exaggeration?). Well, Ghandi being an Indian, have their own way of expressing Worship to God. So I jus wish to highlight these differences. For example, its very usual to you guys the listen to someone Rhyming Catholic lyrics. People in your parish would buy your album. In my country, it's different. Anything that sounds similar in the sense of beats or instrumental arrangement to Secular music wouldn't even be allowed into the parish compound. Music concerts for youths in my diocese are unheard of.

So do we say that whoever allowed bells to be used in church also sort of secularized the whole thing? I guess not.

and guys pray for our churches all over the world, for people who will only believe when they see a sign from "miracle workers". Here in East Africa there are all these Evangelical Ministries spreading everywhere with their gospel of preaching prosperity, telling people that Jesus died to save them from poverty. Many Catholics have fallen prey to their tricks and wandered away from the church and eventually abandoned the Christian faith all together. This is one way that Secularization has creeped into the flock and misled many.

Edited November 12, 2006 by JP3

[Seven77]

JP3 is on point. For Africa drums are used in worship. Nothing wrong here.

But----we're talking about secularization. Here in the USA we have sometimes a false sense of multiculturialism that focuses on the social AT THE EXPENSE of the spiritual. That is the issue.

Africans know what they are doing. Westerners are silly. Ask your Bishops for missionaries for us!

[Extra ecclesiam nulla salus]

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' post='1117443' date='Nov 11 2006, 10:07 AM']
Secularization is bad, but turning the church into a social place is good. You are too young to remember, but back in the day, the church was the center of your life. You went to catholic school, hung out with catholic friends, your mum belong to the womens groups, your father the mens organizations, you belong to cyo. On the weekends you bowled on the catholic team, played baseball on the catholic team, and went on field trips sponsored by your church. You celebrated all the holidays as a church family, in fact you were born, lived and died in a parish community.
THe parish was and should be the center of your life.
[/quote]


if only things were like that now....

[cmotherofpirl]

At that time, culture was supportive of religion and good behavior in general.
Times changed.

[Balthazor]

That was a different time....the question is are we reminiscing about something that was or a figment of our collective memories that we hope was?

Right now we are struggling to just keep religion of the list of four letter words. Do you think that this will come full circle back to original participation levels in Catholic Parishes or will the trend continue as it is? With the general population furthur distancing itself from the community of the Church and furthur developing a culture completely outside of religious life?

[Akalyte]

I believe Pope Benedict XVI has the answer and he's putting it into action.

[jwangkal]

[quote name='Balthazor' post='1118398' date='Nov 13 2006, 02:54 AM']
That was a different time....the question is are we reminiscing about something that was or a figment of our collective memories that we hope was?

Right now we are struggling to just keep religion of the list of four letter words. Do you think that this will come full circle back to original participation levels in Catholic Parishes or will the trend continue as it is? With the general population furthur distancing itself from the community of the Church and furthur developing a culture completely outside of religious life?
[/quote]

I think people are developing a culture outside religious life because life in the secular world is changing faster than the faithful themselves can adapt and put their faith into action in their daily life. Life is a struggle every where. There is just so much information bombarding the human mind. Detatching one's self from the world would be the answer to all this, but on the other hand we still live in the same world and there is a lot that you have to keep in touch with to survive.

Read the signs of the times. The answer to all this is in our Lady's message of Fatima. and jus as Akalyte says, keeping to Orthodoxy and Tradition

Edited November 13, 2006 by JP3

[Balthazor]

It could be this. I also think that secularization is largely do to neglect. that is people do not go to Mass anymore because it is not "normal" to go to mass anymore. Just like a diet that you cheat on once or twice soon you loose it altogether. Perhaps it became acceptable to miss a few times in some peoples eye and gradually it stopped being the norm and started being the exception. Where as in years past missing would have been the exception.

Ironically the remedy for this type of falling away would probably be more family pressure and involvement, something that can be sustained by more than one beleiving member.

[jwangkal]

Secularization is the Mark of the Beast, mensioned in the Book of Revelation. The mark of the forehead means the excessive use of intellect at the expense of simple faith in God. Isn't that what has brought our generation down to believing in outward guestures at the expense of simple faith in the Eucharist.
The mark of the right hand represents the dependency of our generation on material pocessions as a measure of one's success to the extent that there is no respect for the human person. Even the quality of life is now taken to be more important than life it's self. Isn't that why there are so many abortions in the world today and artificial birth control is widely preached.

[Red Knight]

[quote name='JP3' post='1117503' date='Nov 11 2006, 10:21 AM']
I come from East Africa where when there are chaos in villages, people take refuge in the churches. The church is our home and should be a social place. I feel pain when practicing catholics would rather go to a professional councellor whaen they have marital problems instead of seeking advice from the Parish priest or a particular priest whom they would choose.
[/quote]

My wife and I went to a counselor recommended by the Priest. Also happened to be a grief counseling service started by one of the Mortuaries in town. Excellent place.