Help Improve Vocation Station!

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote name='Veritas' post='1116747' date='Nov 10 2006, 11:02 AM']
The same way debate phorum is separated from Q and A and lame board from open mic -they are significantly different! Vocation is HUGE!
[/quote]
If Phatmass had the space to give an individual phorum to each significantly different thing in the Catholic faith without obnoxious clutter, it would be a much larger website, but that would not be to its benefit. Different vocations are different, as different as members of the Church...but members of the Church still have to share the Church. The phorums you mention above are separated because they have different purposes, namely, answering questions, being silly, and general discussion. Two vocations phorums, one for religious life and one for married life makes no sense because the two are one category and one purpose: discernment.

[quote]Oh, and by the way, in the words of the Council of Trent and His Holiness John Paul the Great, A vocation to the religious life is OBJECTIVELY a higher calling. NOT that those called are better in any way, but by God's grace, their religious life IS a higher calling because by its vows, it more closely emulates the life of Christ. Again, it's NOT me creating this -if you don't like it, take it up with Christ, the Magisterium, the Pope, Scripture, and 2,000 years of Tradition. Just wanted to point that out in the midst of some post Vatican II confusion.[/quote]

Are you assuming that I don't agree with this? Just because it's objectively higher doesn't mean it has a right to be separated from the rest of the Church.

[Veritas]

[quote name='IcePrincessKRS' post='1116768' date='Nov 10 2006, 10:28 AM']
Those threads are still here, just not pinned anymore. Its not as though we're doing away with all the things you love about the Vocation Station. I truly think that the changes will be gradual and for the better. Its going to take awhile for people to get used to on both sides of the fence, so to speak. In the long run I think alot more support and prayer for those discerning (no matter what their chosen vocation) will be fostered with this change.
[/quote]

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My only question is, this thread was started asking for opinions. So, far every single thing the mods agree with has been applauded and told they're already planning. Everything else has been dismissed.. If everything had already been decided on, WHY was this thread created? It's dishonest, misleading, and looks like an attempt at pats on the back. If no one was really interested in what people think, which is born out by the dismissal of "dissenting" thinkers, WHY is this here?

[quote name='Raphael' post='1116773' date='Nov 10 2006, 10:34 AM']
If Phatmass had the space to give an individual phorum to each significantly different thing in the Catholic faith without obnoxious clutter, it would be a much larger website, but that would not be to its benefit. Different vocations are different, as different as members of the Church...but members of the Church still have to share the Church. The phorums you mention above are separated because they have different purposes, namely, answering questions, being silly, and general discussion. Two vocations phorums, one for religious life and one for married life makes no sense because the two are one category and one purpose: discernment.
Are you assuming that I don't agree with this? Just because it's objectively higher doesn't mean it has a right to be separated from the rest of the Church.
[/quote]

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I appreciate what you're saying, and I think you make a good point. However, because of the breadth and depth of vocation -it permeats every aspect of life, I think they deserve separate spaces -just from a practical standpoint.

No, I'm not assuming. It was addressing previous posts. No, I'm not speaking of "rights of separation" I would never shroud it in those terms. What I am saying, is what is helpful. That is, people discerning religious life are such an anomaly it's been really nice to have a special place for us! Now, that will be gone.

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote name='Veritas' post='1116776' date='Nov 10 2006, 11:44 AM']
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I appreciate what you're saying, and I think you make a good point. However, because of the breadth and depth of vocation -it permeats every aspect of life, I think they deserve separate spaces -just from a practical standpoint.

No, I'm not assuming. It was addressing previous posts. No, I'm not speaking of "rights of separation" I would never shroud it in those terms. What I am saying, is what is helpful. That is, people discerning religious life are such an anomaly it's been really nice to have a special place for us! Now, that will be gone.
[/quote]
Okay, first, please stop using the word "vocation" as if it only means "religious vocation." That's not the teaching of the Church.

So you want a special place where those discerning religious life can go to discern, to be set apart, and be treated well? That would be the postulancy.

It's great for people with religious vocations to have a certain place for discernment amongst themselves, but whenever that is done in the real world, it is set apart from the rest of the world in a private place. This phorum is like trying to have that community in the middle of a generic Catholic conference. There are lots of other things going on around you and this phorum is not private. It's not like the cloister. It's like having a booth at a Catholic conference. You are here to discuss with people interested in religous life, correct? This is the public side of religious discernment. It has to be open to the world. It has to be open to people coming up and saying, "hello, Sister, I'm discerning marriage, myself, but I thought I'd stop by to say hi and see how things are going with your discernment. Maybe you'd like to help me discern my call to marriage or to pray for me? We're all in this together, you know..." This is a very public place and should be open to discussing all vocations. It is not the nature of a web phorum to be an online cloister where those discussing religious vocations may meet in private.

[Veritas]

[quote name='Raphael' post='1116789' date='Nov 10 2006, 11:06 AM']
Okay, first, please stop using the word "vocation" as if it only means "religious vocation." That's not the teaching of the Church.

So you want a special place where those discerning religious life can go to discern, to be set apart, and be treated well? That would be the postulancy.

It's great for people with religious vocations to have a certain place for discernment amongst themselves, but whenever that is done in the real world, it is set apart from the rest of the world in a private place. This phorum is like trying to have that community in the middle of a generic Catholic conference. There are lots of other things going on around you and this phorum is not private. It's not like the cloister. It's like having a booth at a Catholic conference. You are here to discuss with people interested in religous life, correct? This is the public side of religious discernment. It has to be open to the world. It has to be open to people coming up and saying, "hello, Sister, I'm discerning marriage, myself, but I thought I'd stop by to say hi and see how things are going with your discernment. Maybe you'd like to help me discern my call to marriage or to pray for me? We're all in this together, you know..." This is a very public place and should be open to discussing all vocations. It is not the nature of a web phorum to be an online cloister where those discussing religious vocations may meet in private.
[/quote]

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Raphael.

1. I am very intentionally NOT using the word "vocation" to refer just to religious vocations. You misread my post. I very puposefully used "vocation" to designate that single and married EACH deserve their own space! If you will be kind enough to review my posts, you will see your claim was unfounded. I am well aware of the teaching of the Church. Although, please note the phatmass vocation blurb, which pointedly does otherwise, "Vocation Station Do you have questions about becoming a priest or a nun? Want to talk about your journey into the religious life? This is the place homey." By it's own design, VS has been a place for discernment to the priesthood and/or religious life! In addition, you must know as well as anyone that historically, up until Vatican II, "vocation" referred to that of priest or religious, so it is natural that that usage is still in place in our language and is sometimes used to connotate priesthood and/or religious life alone.

2. There are many people here who are pre-postulants and aspirants. Discernment isn't just for postulancy. If it was, no one would ever end-up in a convent or monastery! Peole come here with their questions about religious life and the seminary/priesthood. Anyone is welcome to participate and ask a question! And, people often do who are not actively discerning. This is no "cloister" it IS open to anyone, simply FOCUSED! It is helpful to talk with like-minded individuals. No, personally, I would not go to someone who is married to help me discern my call to the religious life in a serious way. I would go to someone who knows more about it like a priest or religious or other discerners to the life.

Edited November 10, 2006 by Veritas

[Azriel]

Step back ya'll and as Laura stated, pray and trust. I believe in her and I believe that no one is looking for a generic pat on the back. No one wants to take away anything from anyone, just bring the fruits to all.

Lets not turn this into an us vs them scenario.

[Veritas]

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Okay, I've thought about it a little bit, and this would be my ideal solution.

1. Have one phorum named "Vocation Station" with a blurb something like "Get help living, learning, and discerning your Vocation -whatever it is!"

2. With Two Subphorums. A. Titled, "Consecrated/Religious Life" B. Titled "Marriage and Family Life" or vice versa

Let me say, I've never been on Creepy Aliens. Why? Because I'm too old! Do I feel left-out or not-included? No. Why? Because I recognize that it's fruitful for peers to have their own space. And, that's all I'm advocating for for Religious/Consecrated and Married discerners and livers.

Obviously, I have no authority here and no one has to do what I suggest. However, I want to make it clear, that my only motivation is to make VS the best, most productive, and most helpful place it can be -for all us.

Pax,
V

Edited November 10, 2006 by Veritas

[franciscanheart]

Wow! I missed A LOT!


Margaret Clare, before I get ahead of myself, I think you have great ideas! Perhaps we can discuss them sometime soon!


Veritas, I do not wish to argue any longer. However, I would like to address one point you made that would have me frustrated if I felt what you do. You mentioned this being a place for ideas to improve. You went on to say that whenever an idea is presented someone says they're already working on it. Well, to my memory, there have only been two things I have said I am working on. The first was a list of orders with contact information and an orthodoxy rating scale - and a list of resources for those discerning religious life. You will see that I've already pinned the second part of that.

I've had probably three or four people throw the same idea out about contacts for different orders. I too had had this idea. So it was great that we were all thinking along the same lines. As is the case with most things, not everything happens in public view. Behind the scenes there are about three or four people working on projects. I won't name names because I'm not sure they want to be thrown into this back and forth. But they are on board and working hard. And I appreciate it.

Outside of those two things, most of what has gone on here is bickering over whether or not this change should be happening. We have been very rational about responses. We do have the support of the webmaster and are trying to make the change as comfortable and as smooth as possible.

I really don't have much else to say as some of the other moderators have done a good job saying what I would.

If there's anything else you'd like to discuss, please feel free to let me know. We're not trying to silence you, nor have we ignored what you're saying. In fact, you have gotten more attention in this thread than anyone. Why? Because we aren't here to make you unhappy. We want to resolve the differences.

So please don't be upset.


May the Lord give you His peace!


Respectfully,
hugheyforlife

[Veritas]

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Hughey,

I don't want to "bicker" either, I want to address the issues. Ultimately, this isn't about my being "upset" or not, that doesn't really matter. It's about being honest if you ask for people's opinions and sincerely addressing the issues. -e.g. I imagine I've received the most "attention" because I've posted the most!

I realize others are working on this, that's why I stated 'modS' and I appreciate their dialogue. That doesn't change the fact that you (the mods and dUSt) seem to have made all decisions prior to asking for our imput, which again, begs the question, "why ask?"

Ultimately, this isn't about making anyone "feel bad" it's about making VS the best it can be and being honest. Sometimes, "feeling bad" is the natural result of injustice.

Since, even though opinions were solicited, decisions have already been made... there's no real point in anyone posting here, is there? Except to be affirmed or denied or get some "sneak peek". I'm perfectly fine with an outright monarchy, as long as it doesn't front as a democracy.

V

p.s. I've spent some fierce time in "inter-religious debate" so this doesn't bother me. However, I can see if you're not used to it, that this kind of dialogue can be intense and distressing. I think it's important to realize that we may be coming from two different mindsets about the purpose of this thread, I think it's important to dialogue. It's only pointless 'arguing' if we're not thinking.

Edited November 10, 2006 by Veritas

[franciscanheart]

[quote name='Veritas' post='1116849' date='Nov 10 2006, 01:00 PM']
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Hughey,

I don't want to "bicker" either, I want to address the issues. Ultimately, this isn't about my being "upset" or not, that doesn't really matter. It's about being honest if you ask for people's opinions and sincerely addressing the issues. -e.g. I imagine I've received the most "attention" because I've posted the most!

I realize others are working on this, that's why I stated 'modS' and I appreciate their dialogue. That doesn't change the fact that you seem to have made all decisions prior to asking for our imput, which again, begs the question, "why ask?"

Ultimately, this isn't about making anyone "feel bad" it's about making VS the best it can be and being honest. Sometimes, "feeling bad" is the natural result of injustice.

Since, even though opinions were solicited, decisions have already been made... there's no real point in anyone posting here, is there? Except to be affirmed or denied or get some "sneak peek".

V

p.s. I've spent some fierce time in "inter-religious debate" so this doesn't bother me. However, I can see if you're not used to it, that this kind of dialogue can be intense and distressing. I think it's important to realize that we may be coming from two different mindsets about the purpose of this thread, I think it's important to dialogue. It's only pointless 'arguing' if we're not thinking.
[/quote]
Okay, first: I wasn't referring to mods working on this! No, I'm talking about long-time members of Vocation Station. The other mods only popped their heads in. As of now, none of them are working on side projects. So, you don't have a reason to think we've all come together to make decisions without you and then ask you for no reason.

Second: The ONLY decision that has been made is to incorporate all vocations. The OP may have been a bit misleading and for that I apologize. I was looking for things like this:

I think it's good to keep large, general threads pinned.
It would be good to have a list of orthodox orders.
I would like to see more information on Consecrated Virgins.
I think a single list of phatmass religious would be helpful. One person could edit it and it would help keep things neat.


You see? That's what I was looking for. So, in that sense, we have not done anything to wrong you.

Third: I do not believe any 'injustice' is being done. What injustice do you feel is being done?

[shortnun]

[quote name='hugheyforlife' post='1116853' date='Nov 10 2006, 01:07 PM']
1) I think it's good to keep large, general threads pinned.
2) It would be good to have a list of orthodox orders.
3) I would like to see more information on Consecrated Virgins.
4) I think a single list of phatmass religious would be helpful. One person could edit it and it would help keep things neat.
[/quote]
1) I liked the threads that were pinned before. And I like the threads that are pinned now. I liked that they'd been started and continued over a long period of time and that everyone was able to contribute to them to foster genuine conversation.

2) SUPER! God bless all working on this large task.

3) Perfect! Especially in light of some conversations we've had on this topic over the last few months.

4) That existed before. And it was easy enough to be edited by anyone and keep neat (even though there were a few of us who were primary editors).

[HeavenlyCalling]

I think that if all the vocations to the religious life were thrown in there with the vocations to the married life it would be very confusing. I think the idea of having two sub-forums is a good idea, you could go to either one, but the people discerning the religious life could still have our close-knit sence of phamily.

There are plently of places that you can talk about marriage and dating in your life. You can talk about it with your parents, with your friends, or with your boyfriend/girlfriend/spouse/significant other, because most people go through this in thier life, there are plently of places to talk about it.

That said, I think a sub-phorum would be nice because you could talk about dating, ask for prayers for your ______ (fill in the blank i.e boyfriend, girlfriend), Catholic education of children ect.

But having a separet place for the religious-life-discernment-people is very important, at least to me. This is where I spend most of my time on phatmass (I read some of the others, but I mostly post here) and where I feel the most comfortable. Mostly I dont want to loose the sence of pham, when I come here with a question or concern I know I will get a responce from someone who has gone through the same thing, or IS going through the same thing, I want to keep the sence of Pham, is my bottom line.

[franciscanheart]

[quote name='shortnun' post='1116886' date='Nov 10 2006, 02:19 PM']
4) That existed before. And it was easy enough to be edited by anyone and keep neat (even though there were a few of us who were primary editors).
[/quote]
Those were all just fake examples but if you like them, hey! Great! We'll go with it! : And about the one quoted above, that thread had a lot of extra commentary and you had to scroll back through it to see where the last update was. Add to that errors in coding... it just seems simpler to have the one thread to refer to with the extra thread (unpinned) for other discussion about who is entering when and where. I don't want to kill the discussion, just have a more concise, legible, organized list up top.

[quote name='HeavenlyCalling' post='1116911' date='Nov 10 2006, 03:25 PM']
I think that if all the vocations to the religious life were thrown in there with the vocations to the married life it would be very confusing. I think the idea of having two sub-forums is a good idea, you could go to either one, but the people discerning the religious life could still have our close-knit sence of phamily.

There are plently of places that you can talk about marriage and dating in your life. You can talk about it with your parents, with your friends, or with your boyfriend/girlfriend/spouse/significant other, because most people go through this in thier life, there are plently of places to talk about it.

That said, I think a sub-phorum would be nice because you could talk about dating, ask for prayers for your ______ (fill in the blank i.e boyfriend, girlfriend), Catholic education of children ect.

But having a separet place for the religious-life-discernment-people is very important, at least to me. This is where I spend most of my time on phatmass (I read some of the others, but I mostly post here) and where I feel the most comfortable. Mostly I dont want to loose the sence of pham, when I come here with a question or concern I know I will get a responce from someone who has gone through the same thing, or IS going through the same thing, I want to keep the sence of Pham, is my bottom line.
[/quote]
Okay I'll say it again...

You aren't going to lose that! We're all still here. And it will be clear which threads are for religious life and which are not. There are still going to be religious vocation discerners here to comment and pray and support you. It's not going away!

I'll think of something more to say to this effect later. I understand y'all are worried that you are going to be losing something. But you're not.

Time for work now... play nice.

[onlygrace08]

hmm... well I've read through the whole thread and I must say that I agree on many points with Veritas and Heavenly Calling. However, I think I will just wait and see. Perhaps the changes won't be that big?...

[benedictaj]

[quote name='onlygrace08' post='1116984' date='Nov 11 2006, 11:52 AM']
hmm... well I've read through the whole thread and I must say that I agree on many points with Veritas and Heavenly Calling.
[/quote]
Yeah, I totally agree with them. However, I don't like wasting time online so I'm not on phatmass that much any more - so my opinion isn't that important.

God bless!

[HisChild]

I only come on to PM every few days or so and had my computer in the shop for over a week. I come back and WOW! What a debate.

I've seen several threads in the past on VS on the married life. And God bless you all who are married who DO consider your marriage a vocation. Because so few do, even though it is a vocation and one that is incredibly difficult to live. In fact, I think we need MORE threads on married life as a vocation. If we do, maybe more people, especially those visiting this phorum will start looking at it AS a vocation. You know? And yet, right now, I don't see much space devoted to the married life. VS is the only phorum where I've seen threads dedicated as such. I can't see that threads for other vocations belonging any where else. Not only that, but if there were even more pages made for PM, wouldn't that increase the necessary bandwidth and cost more for Dust?

I really enjoyed discovering PM earlier this year, when I was discerning. I had in fact, already chosen the monastery where I wanted to enter, but it was great seeing that I wasn't alone in my discernment. After leaving the monastery, I was. . .well, I was lost. I knew that while my vocation was to holiness, my vocation as a state in life. . .well, I wasnt' sure where I was being called. Consecrated single? 3rd order? Religious? Married? I still don't know but truly, VS to me, is pretty EXclusive, rather than inclusive, concentrating more on the vocation to the religious life. I personally would LIKE to see more threads on various vocations, so that those who have begun their initial discernment might be able to see the various forms that vocational discernment takes.

I can't say that I would find 'wading' through the various subject titles of threads as tedious. If there's someone who is looking into discerning their vocation and not quite sure of the path. . they'd have to flip back and forth to the various phorums or subphorums. I enjoy the threads all together.

I rarely go to any of the other phorums. Not sure where our Lord is calling me, I cannot imagine flipping through phorums gathering information and posting. When I think of subdividing I think of a hypothetical. . .a woman discerning cloistered Carmel and posts for info on spirituality. Then say there's a 3rd order Carmelite who posts on another 3rd order sub phorum. She would have to flip from her own sub phorum to the 'religious life' subphorum in order to even see that thread and know it exists before she could respond. Now? Any 3rd order threads, etc. are already on the same phorum, making things much more simple.

My thoughts are that we should make VS a universal vocation discernment phorum. It seems less divisive. . . I hope my opinion doesn't offend anyone's sensibilities. It's just my own perspective. My $.02, if you will.

Pax Christi,

D.