Don John of Austria Posted January 16, 2004 Share Posted January 16, 2004 The position of the Church is definantly about the Faith, not to mention his excoriation(sp?) of all these errors in Quanta Curia--- As for your question as far as I know there is no document that EXPLICTLY promotes seperation of Church and State, but you are right many Church leaders implicitly promote it, that would make them personally in heresy, but not directly teaching it, there is little that can be done. Now as for Fundementalist and Jews I would allow them to practice there faith but it is not morally REQUIRED that one do so, furthermore, there are still religions which have animal sacrifice to pagan gods, sexual orgys to honor fertility gods etc. these probably should not be allowed to "practice there religion even though they shouldn't be forced into the Church either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aloysius Posted January 16, 2004 Share Posted January 16, 2004 alright, so the Church is not to be seperated from the State and the State from the Church... what is the intent of this statement, what specific errors does it actually intend to condemn? it appears to me that this did not intend to give the Church full power over affairs of the state. it appears that this means that the state should not be able to make laws contrary to Church teaching, and therefore stuff like Roe V. Wade are an outrage and go against this. the Church is not to be seperate from the state in that it advises the state and continues to urge the state to do certain things in line with Catholic morality. i do not believe that it says the Church may decide any laws. it does however mean that leaders, by the rules of the Church, should act in accordance with the Church's teachings. and thus it is an evil when the State makes a law contrary to Church teachings. that in no way seems to contradict the fact that the state makes the laws. there is a mutual relationship, the Church advising the state, the state making the laws. and in accordance with all morality, the state should make the law in accordance with the teaching of the Church, and thus laws against the teaching of the Church are wrong. but it does not say that the way to make sure those laws are never made is for the Church to be in control of the state. in the same relationship the Church has to individuals, the Church rules all the nations on matters of morals, but it does not force the nations to do the right thing, only makes sure they know what the right thing is. Religious freedom is not contrary to that, if you think i'm wrong maybe i missed something, point it out to me. Religious Freedom is the "seperation of Church and State" which i do not believe is the same idea of seperation of Church and state that this document refers to, rather a misuse of this seperation. the seperation of Church and State in the Constitution says Congress shall make no law establishing religion or prohibiting the free practice thereof, or something along those lines. show me where this document says the state is sposedta make laws about what religion ppl are sposedta follow. it says that the Nation cannot consider itself above the standards of morals the Church defines for all people, that this morality applies to them also and if they make laws contradicting it, their nation is in err against the Church. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aloysius Posted January 16, 2004 Share Posted January 16, 2004 oh, and please don't send this to the back alley for bein Catholic on Catholic! honest, we're all bein faithful to the Churc position just tryin to decide what the correct interpretation of it is! :sadder: my Back Alley priveledges were revoked since i'm under 18 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don John of Austria Posted January 16, 2004 Share Posted January 16, 2004 Congress shall make no law establishing a religion however the a unified State/Church has an established religion so that is obviously contrary to the meaning of the above statement. Think about it-- If thee State can make no laws contrary to the Teachings of the Catholic Church then it has adopted the Catholic Church as the State Church therefore violateing amendment 1 of our Constitution. you Cannot have one with out the other it just isn't possable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don John of Austria Posted January 16, 2004 Share Posted January 16, 2004 look I gotta go to bed talk to y'all tomarrow. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aloysius Posted January 16, 2004 Share Posted January 16, 2004 (edited) i believe it to be saying that any nation who contradicts the Church is in err. i do not believe it to be saying that the best way for all ages is for the Church to be the official Church of all nations. it is simply saying that nations should follow the morality defined by the Church, not that the Church must interfere to create that obedience. and that's where my previous explanation of what should be enforced and when comes in. the Church states that all nations must follow morality as set by the Catholic Church. in some ages, this was best accomplished by the Church being the official religion thereby affirming that the Church will not make laws aganst true Christian morality. in this age this is best accomplished by the Church advising all nations. leaders are thereby morally accountable if they contradict true Christian Morality, but the Church is not to be in all times officially in control of nations. it is not for the good of the world in this age for the Church to officially control nations. aight, DJ, Cya 2marrow. uh oh.. "Truth" is on this thread... he's gonna have a field day :ph34r: :shield: Edited January 16, 2004 by Aloysius Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aloysius Posted January 16, 2004 Share Posted January 16, 2004 actually, i gotta go too. got finals tomarrow :ph34r: oh boy, i cant wait to come back and see if truth posts something <i'm just kiddin around witchya truth, i know you got good intentions i just might havta fight what those intentions manifest > Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Truth Posted January 16, 2004 Share Posted January 16, 2004 Don John, (or anyone else who knows) What exactly are the infallibles? How do we find them? For instance, it's been said that contraception, though reasonable, is not infallibly declared and that we should follow out of respect for the authority and the sound rationale of the Pope. But if this is technically not infallible and in the catechism, where exactly is the infallibe information? Does the Church just want us to follow the Pope and not concern ourselves with what is and is not technically infallible? Just out of curiosity. And my questions on Israel are still standing. YES, THIS IS WHAT AM TALKING ABOUT. THIS PERSON SEEK THE TRUTH. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Truth Posted January 16, 2004 Share Posted January 16, 2004 actually, i gotta go too. got finals tomarrow :ph34r: oh boy, i cant wait to come back and see if truth posts something <i'm just kiddin around witchya truth, i know you got good intentions i just might havta fight what those intentions manifest > TRUTH. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don John of Austria Posted January 16, 2004 Share Posted January 16, 2004 Aloysius-- Pius IX chose his words very carefully and in response to the errors of the time, the errors of modernity, What you are saying is exactly what the liberals of the Day where saying and precisely what he was condemning, as you have noticed there are many errors about inproper intrusion into the Church by the State, some peopel offered Seperation between Church and State as a solution, that seperation, modeled after our own Government is precisely what was being Condemned. Pius ment and said repeatedly( and showed in his actions as ruler of the Papal States) that he ment exactly what he said Seperation off Church and State is not in keeping with the revealed Truth that God has given us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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