Executing Sadam

[Red Knight]

[quote name='littlebreakdowns' post='1113912' date='Nov 7 2006, 01:24 PM']
Do you honestly think that the insurgents are going to stop killing just because he's being killed? He'll be made a martyr. [b]This isn't going to make the problems over there any better.[/b][/quote]

What problems? What do you expect to be happening in Iraq right now? There is a war being fought around the world and Iraq is one of the primary battlegrounds. Whether or not Saddam is put to death is irrelevant with regards to the war on terror. It is relevant to the Iraqi people and the soveriegnty of their government and the legitimacy of their judicial system.

People are going to continue blowing themselves and other people up regardless of what happens to Saddam.

[Anomaly]

[quote name='littlebreakdowns' post='1113912' date='Nov 7 2006, 02:24 PM']
Do you honestly think that the insurgents are going to stop killing just because he's being killed? He'll be made a martyr. This isn't going to make the problems over there any better.
[/quote]
Doh. The onese killing to get Sadaam back into power will stop. Who wants a Dead President? Wait. That didn't come out right.

Who wants a Dead Dictator? It's not going to solve all the problems in Iraq, just the ones killing because of Sadaam. Unless you believe that Sadaam is worth a half dozen expendable lives because he was 'The President'.

[Aloysius]

The Catholic Church does not teach that it is wrong to kill a man as retribution for killing others. It teaches that this is perfect justice, not reversed but rather confirmed by Our Lord, but that when nations have the capability to use non-lethal means and sufficiently protect society without enacting this perfect justice, it can be a greater good.

The means provided by the United States of America are not applicable here, because the ultimate good of Iraq is that it not be dependent upon the United States, the United States wants it to be stable on its own. Iraq tried Saddam. If Iraq's forces, and only Iraq's forces, are incapable of defending their society sufficiently without enacting perfect justice on Saddam then Iraq is justified in executing Saddam, for whosoever sheddeth a man's blood by man shall his blood be shed; Our Lord never reversed that principal of the natural law given in the Old Testament.

Saddam deserves death for his crimes. Iraq cannot sufficiently protect its own society from the instability offered by the insurgents who fight hoping Saddam might one day regain power. Therefore, Iraq may execute Saddam.

Of course, the United States has the means to keep the Iraq society relatively stable even while holding Saddam with safe non-lethal means. But the United States is a temporary power in the equation: Iraq itself does not have the capability to hold Saddam prisoner for the duration of his lifetime without danger of him being freed.

[God Conquers]

Al,

The Church does teach that this is perfect justice as expressed by God. And we are supposed to exercise perfect justice.

But we don't teach taking a life for a life, because the Church also images God's perfect mercy.

[Didymus]

I can't say I blame the Iraqis for doing this. I mean, I would want Al Quaida factions and leaders to receive the death penalty for their actions against Americans, but this is more than that for the Iraqis. Sadam actually took power of the government when he was killing and massacreing their people. Although I'd wouldn't be totally against giving him life in prison, I'm leaning more towards the death penalty. This is more than just a mass murderer.

Edited November 8, 2006 by Didymus

[dairygirl4u2c]

I appreciate Al's response. I'm not sure if he considered this. If Iraq asked the US to hold Saddam, I don't think arguing anything about dignity would be warranted. The CC teaches to keep the life if possible, so that would seem to me to trump some abstract notion that they should only tend to their own matters compettely, and if they can't be sure to hold Saddam securely, then execute him. I'm sure the US would hold him if Iraq asked us to.

I don't see the reasons behind everyone elses justification. The best other reason I saw was that Saddam's living would encourage people to chaos. Unless that was meant in the sense of what Al said, I don't see how that would be the case. It seems like a flimsy rationalization to justify killing him, and ignoring that the CC at least unofficially (i mean not ex cathedra, de fide or dogmatically etc, officially in that it came from its spokes people) teaches he shouldn't be killed.

I'd be interested in seeing a debate with people who think what they said was only a recommendation that doesn't need to be followed, versus a recommendatin that does need to be followed.

[mofca]

What's the point of this discussion. The people of Iraq are Muslim. Do you think it even matters to them whether the Catholic church approves or not?

[Azriel]

[quote name='mofca' post='1120918' date='Nov 15 2006, 04:58 PM']
What's the point of this discussion. The people of Iraq are Muslim. Do you think it even matters to them whether the Catholic church approves or not?
[/quote]


It doesn't matter to them, but it matters to us.

[Red Knight]

[quote name='mofca' post='1120918' date='Nov 15 2006, 03:58 PM']
What's the point of this discussion. The people of Iraq are Muslim. Do you think it even matters to them whether the Catholic church approves or not?
[/quote]

The majority, yes. However, there are substantial minorities of Christian and Zoroastian faiths.

[stuckinamo]

i don't really care who you are or what you've done.........no one deserves to be killed by another human being. that's just wrong.

[Mercy me]

[quote name='stuckinamo' post='1120987' date='Nov 15 2006, 05:44 PM']
i don't really care who you are or what you've done.........no one deserves to be killed by another human being. that's just wrong.
[/quote]

The difference here is that it is not someone killing Saddam it is the government of the country in which he lives. Societies have the duty to protect themselves for threats.

Edited to correct spelling.

Edited November 15, 2006 by Mercy me

[Matty_boy]

[quote name='Mercy me' post='1121000' date='Nov 15 2006, 04:54 PM']
The difference here is that it is not someone killing Saddam it is the government of the country in which he lives. Societies have the duty to protect themselves for threats.

Edited to correct spelling.
[/quote]

In my humble opinion, executing Saddam is society protecting themselves from the threat. Maybe I've seen too many movies, and read too many articles about terrorists taking hostages or threatening to blow up things to get a political leader out of prison, but I sincerely believe that killing Saddam, taking him out of the equation, will keep militants/terrorists from attempting to put Saddam back in power.

It's like playing a game of capture the flag. The Iraqi police are one team, the militants are another. The militants objective is to kill the Iraqi police team, while the Iraqi police are trying to capture the flag of democracy and freedom. The police cannot also "protect the flag" while trying to secure freedom. They don't have the means or manpower to do so without risk of great harm.

[Pax Christi]

I believe that once a murderer is captured and imprisoned he is no longer a threat to society. So, execution would be unjust.
It is another thing to execute someone who still walks amongst society and would cause the death of innocent people.

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='Pax Christi' post='1121545' date='Nov 16 2006, 11:11 AM']
I believe that once a murderer is captured and imprisoned he is no longer a threat to society. So, execution would be unjust.
It is another thing to execute someone who still walks amongst society and would cause the death of innocent people.
[/quote]

What is "society", are not the non-murderers which are imprisoned, and the police that keep them there part of at least a society?

Do they have a right not to have their lives threatened by a mass murderer? Or a very evil and dangerous man?


The fact is they do have that right, and are denined that right when evil wicked men like Sadam are allow to live among them.

[Matty_boy]

Furthermore, Pax Christi's point may apply with regards to the U.S. prison system, but Iraq is not the U.S.. We have the technology, the means, and the manpower to divert to keeping criminals like saddam in prison with little or no risk to society.

Iraq is a struggling democracy surrounded by fasict theocracies, and infiltrated by oppressive regimes which believe that killing anyone who opposes them is an action rewarded by God.