Necromancers In The "middle Ages"

[Winchester]

[quote]It does not surprised me what I know about the Roman Catholic church that the majority of necromancers in the middle ages were actually members of the Catholic clergy.
[/quote]


I'm curious about the numbers. I'd love to see that. Being realistic, I wouldn't be surprised to find out some/many/ even all of the "middle ages" clergy in the Roman Rite of the Catholic Church were practicing witch craft, but I'd love to see the numbers.

Something exact instead of the usual hazy "most" "many" "the majority" that seems to be one of the big chunks in the pools of bile littering the floor.


SAWdUSt! We need SAWdUSt!

[Kosh]

quiiiiiiiiid???

[KizlarAgha]

Since this tidbit comes from me, let me explain. The reason that most of the necromancers in the middle ages were "clergy" members is because that covered a much broader sweep then than it does now. Technically, many if not most medieval university students were considered to be tonsured members of the Church. In addition, all clerks trained in latin in the 13th century were trained by the Church and thus were part of the Church. Also, since the Church was the best way to get a cushy desk job back then, they had way too many people trained to be priests and not enough parishes to go around (imagine that). So, many of them had too much free time on their hands, a knowledge of Church ceremonies and of latin, and they decided to mess around with necromancy. In fact, Kieckheffer believes that to some extent medieval necromancy is a form of entertainment (not unlike a ouija board) spawned by boredom amongst the vast unemployed masses of the Church's educated. I'm not sure I completely buy into that theory, as summoning demons is serious business if you happen to believe in God and demons.

[Winchester]

But people do goofy things that contradict their beliefs all the time.

We've knocked out a lot of orders since VII (This time it's Huggable.) My priest was ordained an Exorcist. They don't do that anymore.

I'm not sure knowledge equals faith. In fact, I am sure it doesn't.

[Kosh]

just belief doesn't equate faith.

if that were so, we'd all be satanist b/c we all belief that the devil exists.

[KizlarAgha]

Well, I'm a godless heathen, so I have a hard time getting into the mindset of an honest, believing medieval catholic :

[Mateo el Feo]

As always, it seems the discussion might be aided by consulting the Wiki. Here's the entry on Necromancy in Medieval times:
[url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Necromancy#Medieval_necromancy"]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Necromancy#Medieval_necromancy[/url]

[KizlarAgha]

[quote name='Mateo el Feo' post='1109622' date='Nov 3 2006, 01:09 AM']
As always, it seems the discussion might be aided by consulting the Wiki. Here's the entry on Necromancy in Medieval times:
[url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Necromancy#Medieval_necromancy"]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Necromancy#Medieval_necromancy[/url]
[/quote]

It's not a bad article. Draws really heavily from Kieckheffer as is to be expected. I recommend just reading Forbidden Rites and Magic in the Middle Ages. I'd add to that Conjuring Spirits, a collection of historical essays.

[Winchester]

So you see how Kiz can deliver.

It can be done, it just takes a little reading.

And one might notice there are no Catholics getting angry or calling Kiz inflammatory.

Let's all stand back a moment and observe.

[homeschoolmom]

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote name='KizlarAgha' post='1109647' date='Nov 3 2006, 03:54 AM']
It's not a bad article. Draws really heavily from Kieckheffer as is to be expected. I recommend just reading Forbidden Rites and Magic in the Middle Ages. I'd add to that Conjuring Spirits, a collection of historical essays.
[/quote]
...and I'll add to that the advice that between any books on evil in the world, one should read at least three or four books on good, particularly on Jesus and His Mother...just some advice I picked up from a Deacon who studies demonology.

[Azriel]

Wow civilized debate and fact finding. Will the wonders of God never cease!

[KizlarAgha]

[quote name='Raphael' post='1109736' date='Nov 3 2006, 10:34 AM']
...and I'll add to that the advice that between any books on evil in the world, one should read at least three or four books on good, particularly on Jesus and His Mother...just some advice I picked up from a Deacon who studies demonology.
[/quote]

Actually that's not a bad idea, even for an atheist. I find that after a few books on the medieval conception of Satan (Jeffrey Burton Russell formerly of UCSB but now retired has 3 brilliant books on the devil), it's nice to cleanse the palate as it were.

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote name='KizlarAgha' post='1109871' date='Nov 3 2006, 03:54 PM']
Actually that's not a bad idea, even for an atheist. I find that after a few books on the medieval conception of Satan (Jeffrey Burton Russell formerly of UCSB but now retired has 3 brilliant books on the devil), it's nice to cleanse the palate as it were.
[/quote]
Yes, well, even for purely academic purposes, the mind can only focus on evil for so long before it is corrupted and depressed (a proof, at the very least, that the concept of evil is engrained on the common human mind). It's like being a janitor and cleaning toilets (I've been one, I know)...sometimes your job necessitates cleaning things that stink to high heaven, but you shouldn't try to spend your whole day doing it, even if the job demands it.