Circumcision

[Resurrexi]

It is GAVELY WRONG TO CIRCUMSISE YOUR CHILD, BE IT MALE OR FEMALE! ROMA LOCUTA EST, CAUSA FINITA EST!

[quote name='The Sacred Oecumenical Council of Florence']It [the Holy Roman Church] firmly believes, professes and teaches that the legal prescriptions of the old Testament or the Mosaic law, which are divided into ceremonies, holy sacrifices and sacraments, because they were instituted to signify something in the future, although they were adequate for the divine cult of that age, once our lord Jesus Christ who was signified by them had come, came to an end and the sacraments of the new Testament had their beginning. Whoever, after the passion, places his hope in the legal prescriptions and submits himself to them as necessary for salvation and as if faith in Christ without them could not save, sins mortally. It does not deny that from Christ's passion until the promulgation of the gospel they could have been retained, provided they were in no way believed to be necessary for salvation. But it asserts that after the promulgation of the gospel they cannot be observed without loss of eternal salvation. [b][color="#FF0000"]Therefore it denounces all who after that time observe circumcision, the [Jewish] sabbath and other legal prescriptions as strangers to the faith of Christ and unable to share in eternal salvation, unless they recoil at some time from these errors.[/color][/b] Therefore it strictly orders all who glory in the name of Christian, not to practise circumcision either before or after baptism, since whether or not they place their hope in it, it cannot possibly be observed without loss of eternal salvation.[/quote]

Also Sacred Scripture says:

[quote name='The Sacred Paulie Epistles written by God through St. Paul'] Galatians 5:6 "In Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision: but faith that worketh by charity"

Philippians 3:3 "For we are the circumcision, who in spirit serve God; and glory in Christ Jesus, not having confidence in the flesh."

I Corinthians 7:18
Is any man called, being circumcised? let him not procure uncircumcision. Is any man called in uncircumcision? let him not be circumcised.[/quote]

[MissScripture]

[quote name='track2004' post='1109203' date='Nov 2 2006, 05:50 PM']
I've heard the cleanliness bit for male circumcision, but I don't get it. I mean what exactly are you boys doing that is so dirty? I don't get infections in that area and I have a hole there............. I don't get it at all. I know boys can't exactly choose but why would any father (or mother) be like, 'Okay sure put the very very sharp knife on his penis, I'm sure it'll be fine'?? I mean really could you convince a man who was older to have doctors do that to him? I'd also just say about cleanliness again that um if you get that infected you may have bigger issues to deal with too. It's under 2 layers of clothing and you shower often enough... WHAT HAPPENED?

Male circumcision should be outlawed save for religious reasons, of course I have friends who disagree with me, as I'm sure people here do too.
[/quote]
Any folds of skin are going to be a breeding ground for bacteria. Espeically if said fold of skin is in a moist area. And that is why it needs to be cleaned.
Hint: Bacteria doesn't care how many layers of clothing that something is under.

[track2004]

Teach the boys cleanliness is next to godliness... or make them shower. It's not like cleaning that is all that hard.

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote name='StThomasMore' post='1109235' date='Nov 2 2006, 09:23 PM']
It is GAVELY WRONG TO CIRCUMSISE YOUR CHILD, BE IT MALE OR FEMALE! ROMA LOCUTA EST, CAUSA FINITA EST!
[/quote]
We've been through this already. The document you quote only condemns circumcision done by Christians for [i]religious[/i] reasons. Doing it for health reasons is perfectly legitimate.

Don't take things out of context.

[Winchester]

[quote name='KizlarAgha' post='1108844' date='Nov 2 2006, 01:41 PM']
I think it is the time and the place to discuss it as Balthazor specifically asked for thoughts on how it compares to male circumcision. There are zero health benefits to circumcision. Ask any non-American non-Jewish male about it. None of my European male friends are getting infections. In fact, they think the whole idea is completely silly. Why on Earth would men have foreskins if they were detrimental? That doesn't make any sense at all. Evolution wouldn't have favored it if it caused problems.
[/quote]

There's a fallacy there. For evolution to work, the characteristic must change in a member of the species, and those with the undesirable characteristic must be unable to reproduce. It's not so bad or common that uncut males are unable to reproduce, but it does increase the need for hygiene.

As medicine advances, evolution plays a smaller role in human development.

[KizlarAgha]

[quote name='Winchester' post='1109782' date='Nov 3 2006, 11:53 AM']
There's a fallacy there. For evolution to work, the characteristic must change in a member of the species, and those with the undesirable characteristic must be unable to reproduce. It's not so bad or common that uncut males are unable to reproduce, but it does increase the need for hygiene.

As medicine advances, evolution plays a smaller role in human development.
[/quote]

I'm sorry, but if there were a statistically significant increase in urinary tract infections due to foreskin, it would have been a huge evolutionary issue - especially in the time before antibiotics (the vast majority of human history). The AAP says that the potential benefits conferred by circumcision do not merit routine circumcisions. Other countries are even less convinced of the hygienic benefits of the practice.

[Winchester]

[quote name='KizlarAgha' post='1109906' date='Nov 3 2006, 01:46 PM']
I'm sorry, but if there were a statistically significant increase in urinary tract infections due to foreskin, it would have been a huge evolutionary issue - especially in the time before antibiotics (the vast majority of human history). The AAP says that the potential benefits conferred by circumcision do not merit routine circumcisions. Other countries are even less convinced of the hygienic benefits of the practice.
[/quote]

But you can't count on evolution to cure undesirable traits.

I present Larry King as evidence.


And I'm glad my parents did what they did. I'm quite happy.

[KizlarAgha]

[quote name='Winchester' post='1109962' date='Nov 3 2006, 03:24 PM']
But you can't count on evolution to cure undesirable traits.

I present Larry King as evidence.
And I'm glad my parents did what they did. I'm quite happy.
[/quote]

Well, I'm not saying circumcision is heinously evil or that parents who do it are wrong. My only complaint in my own case is the surgeon didn't slip with the scalpel. :