Budge Posted March 5, 2007 Share Posted March 5, 2007 [quote]You claim that the Church elevates Mary to something beyond human. Please show me from the Catechism where it says that Mary is beyond human.[/quote] The very fact that your church teaches Mary can "hear" a million Hail Mary's at once is enough or that Mary knows the desires of your heart. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thy Geekdom Come Posted March 5, 2007 Author Share Posted March 5, 2007 [quote name='Budge' post='1208547' date='Mar 5 2007, 11:58 AM']The very fact that your church teaches Mary can "hear" a million Hail Mary's at once is enough or that Mary knows the desires of your heart.[/quote] Do you think that when you are in heaven, you will remain the same? You will still be human, but you will "be like Him, for [you] shall see Him as He is." If indeed the Blessed Virgin is glorified in heaven, it should come as no surprise to you that she can hear many prayers. However, that doesn't mean that we call her a goddess or anything of the sort; we only say that she has a glorified humanity. This is in line with the precept: "the glory of God is man fully alive." I'd still appreciate a Catechism reference. God bless, Micah Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Budge Posted March 6, 2007 Share Posted March 6, 2007 hehehe Ive noticed that before too Pope actually uses phrase Cult of Mary. The Collyriddians are alive and well in Rome! [quote]Quite frankly, outsiders have every right to be confused about Marian devotion, given the ferocity and myopia of some Marianists.[/quote] We arent confused, we just admit what is going on. The real Mary doesnt want you praying or talking to her, or building shrines to her, or making tissue paper flowers but focusing on God. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thy Geekdom Come Posted March 6, 2007 Author Share Posted March 6, 2007 [quote name='Budge' post='1209124' date='Mar 6 2007, 02:24 PM']hehehe Ive noticed that before too Pope actually uses phrase Cult of Mary. The Collyriddians are alive and well in Rome! We arent confused, we just admit what is going on. The real Mary doesnt want you praying or talking to her, or building shrines to her, or making tissue paper flowers but focusing on God.[/quote] We use the Latin form of "cultus," which has a much broader meaning than the English form "cult." In fact, in Latin, any followers you make in your religious views would be called your "cultus." It simply means "a devoted following." Marian prayer, shrines, and other devotions point us to God. We do not wish to adore Mary, but to behold her Son through her eyes. Again, I ask that anyone who wishes to enter this thread abstain. Many side issues and tangents can be avoided if you will let this discussion stay between Budge and myself. Budge, back on topic, if you please. Do you care to address the previous points I made in my post above? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thy Geekdom Come Posted March 7, 2007 Author Share Posted March 7, 2007 Bump Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Budge Posted March 7, 2007 Share Posted March 7, 2007 [quote]e use the Latin form of "cultus," which has a much broader meaning than the English form "cult." In fact, in Latin, any followers you make in your religious views would be called your "cultus." It simply means "a devoted following."[/quote]That devotion should be going to Jesus Christ. [quote] Marian prayer, shrines, and other devotions point us to God. We do not wish to adore Mary, but to behold her Son through her eyes.[/quote] How can you behold Jesus via Mary's eyes. Actually how can you KNOW MARY? Mary the real one is in heaven. We know God via prayer and the Holy Spirit. So how are you communicating with Mary? Does she answer back? Is her "Spirit" with you? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thy Geekdom Come Posted March 7, 2007 Author Share Posted March 7, 2007 [quote name='Budge' post='1209690' date='Mar 7 2007, 09:24 AM']That devotion should be going to Jesus Christ.[/quote] It is. I'm glad we agree. [quote]How can you behold Jesus via Mary's eyes. Actually how can you KNOW MARY? Mary the real one is in heaven. We know God via prayer and the Holy Spirit. So how are you communicating with Mary? Does she answer back? Is her "Spirit" with you?[/quote] I was speaking figuratively, Budge. We ask Mary to pray for the Holy Spirit to show us the truth about Jesus, the truth she herself sees. We ask her to guide us in prayer and, through the Holy Spirit, to show us in the mysteries what we would not otherwise see. We communicate with Mary through Jesus Christ, her Son, for we are in the same Body, the Church. Sometimes she does answer back. Finally, no, Mary does not have a capital-S "Spirit." Anyway, I'm done addressing this tangent. We were discussing the Immaculate Conception. Would you care to continue the debate? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Budge Posted March 7, 2007 Share Posted March 7, 2007 They did the Immaculate Conception "doctrine" to clean up their tracks, because the Assumption of Mary, well if Mary had sin, she would have had to DIE, "the wages of sin are death" but then they arent sure about that given the TOMBS of MARY... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Budge Posted March 7, 2007 Share Posted March 7, 2007 [b]The Catholic Church cant even confirm if Mary died or not[/b] but supposely they KNOW she was assumed into heaven... How's that for goofy? But there are TWO "Tombs" for Mary, one in Jerusalem, the other in Ephesus JERUSALEM TOMB [img]http://www.jerusalemiloveyou.com/v-mary.jpg[/img] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thy Geekdom Come Posted March 7, 2007 Author Share Posted March 7, 2007 Just because the Catholic Church doesn't say whether or not Mary died doesn't mean anything to this discussion. If they came out and officially ruled, you would accuse them of focusing too much on Mary. If they remain silent, you accuse them of ignorance. Now, I see that you've started posting information that has nothing to do with the Dogma of the Immaculate Conception. Please discuss the topic at hand. God bless, Micah Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Budge Posted March 8, 2007 Share Posted March 8, 2007 [quote]Now, I see that you've started posting information that has nothing to do with the Dogma of the Immaculate Conception. Please discuss the topic at hand. smile.gif[/quote] Look if they dont even know if she died or now, and have TWO places listed as her tomb, how do they know that she was immacuately conceived. They dont. They made it up and its not in the Bible! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thy Geekdom Come Posted March 8, 2007 Author Share Posted March 8, 2007 [quote name='Budge' post='1210013' date='Mar 7 2007, 08:16 PM']Look if they dont even know if she died or now, and have TWO places listed as her tomb, how do they know that she was immacuately conceived. They dont. They made it up and its not in the Bible![/quote] Your logic doesn't follow. In the first half of your statement, you are saying that not knowing one thing is equal to not knowing another thing. In the second half of your statement, you are assuming your own conclusion as a premise. You cannot simply state that something is false and unbiblical and then provide as evidence that it is false and unbiblical. The entire point of this thread is to show that the Immaculate Conception is true and is Biblical, and I have debated with you on every point and am awaiting your reply to those points. Please reply to them. It is not considered good debate practice (nor does it prove your position) to ignore the evidence and claim that your conclusion stands on its own while at the same time refusing to defend your position for whatever reason. Please debate the issue. I have given responses and I await your reply. God bless, Micah Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Budge Posted March 8, 2007 Share Posted March 8, 2007 Look if they dont even know if she died or not... how could they know if she was assumed up to heaven? They cant even say if it was her dead body being assumed up to heaven or if she was a ALIVE. And considering there are TWO TOMBS for her, decided upon before this doctrine, that says it wasnt always a belief I know there was a saint,..Saint basil? That wrote against the Assumption of Mary. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thy Geekdom Come Posted March 8, 2007 Author Share Posted March 8, 2007 [quote name='Budge' post='1210291' date='Mar 8 2007, 07:06 AM']Look if they dont even know if she died or not... how could they know if she was assumed up to heaven? They cant even say if it was her dead body being assumed up to heaven or if she was a ALIVE. And considering there are TWO TOMBS for her, decided upon before this doctrine, that says it wasnt always a belief I know there was a saint,..Saint basil? That wrote against the Assumption of Mary.[/quote] Okay, first off, you're arguing about the Assumption. The thread topic is the Immaculate Conception. Second, no one in the Catholic Church says that her dead body was assumed. Either she didn't die and was assumed or she died and resurrected and was assumed. No one ever says she was dead during the Assumption. Third, the tradition which said she died says that she died for a few days (three, I believe) and then rose again, just like her Son. In that case, there would be a tomb for her. Just because the location is contested doesn't mean a thing. The existence of a tomb does not disprove the Assumption. Anyway, please return to the proper topic of the thread. God bless, Micah Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thy Geekdom Come Posted March 18, 2007 Author Share Posted March 18, 2007 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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