Debate Between Budge And Raphael

[Thy Geekdom Come]

She was here and she ignored me again.

[Budge]

I dont post here everyday.

[quote]
1. Many people argue that if, in order to have an immaculate flesh, Christ needed to get it from His Mother, why didn't she need to receive hers from her mother? This misunderstands the reasoning behind the Immaculate Conception. The Immaculate Conception was necessary because Christ is God and needed a worthy vessel. If it had merely do with having pure flesh, Mary could have been sinful and Christ could Himself have been the Immaculate Conception. However, Mary had to be because she was going to bear God. Mary's mother did not, because she didn't have to bear God.[/quote]


Was St. Anne {Mary's mother} Immaculate?

You can keep going back through the generations.

If Jesus came to live in a sin-filled world, why would this matter?

some Catholics act like the mom is in charge of the assembly [of the Baby} and knows exactly what she is going to get.

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote name='Budge' post='1115331' date='Nov 8 2006, 05:02 PM']
I dont post here everyday.
Was St. Anne {Mary's mother} Immaculate?

You can keep going back through the generations.

If Jesus came to live in a sin-filled world, why would this matter?

some Catholics act like the mom is in charge of the assembly [of the Baby} and knows exactly what she is going to get.
[/quote]
No, St. Anne was not immaculate. As I explained, she didn't need to be immaculate because she wasn't bearing God. Mary did because she was bearing God. It's Christ's divinity that requires a sinless vessel, not His spotless humanity.

[Thy Geekdom Come]

Everyone, I was serious about nobody else posting. Please refrain. If you have something you think just needs to be said, tell one of us privately or else offer up the pain of not saying it.

[Thy Geekdom Come]

You know, Budge, every time you visit Phatmass and ignore this thread, I feel a little neglected.

: Not really, but I wish you'd debate with me here.

[Thy Geekdom Come]

Budge has announced that she will not be coming back. Therefore, this thread is closed.

[Thy Geekdom Come]

Budge has now decided to return, so I am opening this thread again. Budge, would you like to continue where you left off?

[Budge]

[quote]It's Christ's divinity that requires a sinless vessel, not His spotless humanity.[/quote]

If the Holy Spirit can come to dwell in a sinful person who accepts Jesus Christ as saviour and is born again? Why did Christ need a sinless vessel?

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote name='Budge' post='1207811' date='Mar 4 2007, 02:54 PM']If the Holy Spirit can come to dwell in a sinful person who accepts Jesus Christ as saviour and is born again? Why did Christ need a sinless vessel?[/quote]
Grace allows the Holy Spirit to dwell in a sinful person. Grace is what allowed Jesus Christ to dwell in the Blessed Virgin. I don't see anything contradictory there. The only difference is that the Blessed Virgin Mary was full of grace and therefore without sin.

[Budge]

[quote]Grace allows the Holy Spirit to dwell in a sinful person. Grace is what allowed Jesus Christ to dwell in the Blessed Virgin. I don't see anything contradictory there. The only difference is that the Blessed Virgin Mary was full of grace and therefore without sin.[/quote]

Why did she have to be sinless?

Anyhow it is NOT in the Bible, where the Bible says ALL have sinned...

Mary in the Bible said she needed a Savior.

and there is one part in the Bible where Mary and Jesus's brothers and sisters are questioning him....

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote name='Budge' post='1207993' date='Mar 4 2007, 07:30 PM']Why did she have to be sinless?

Anyhow it is NOT in the Bible, where the Bible says ALL have sinned...

Mary in the Bible said she needed a Savior.

and there is one part in the Bible where Mary and Jesus's brothers and sisters are questioning him....[/quote]

Well, first, the Bible does not say that each person sinned, it says that all have sinned. Likewise, I can validly say that all humans have two legs and it's true, because it's a categorical statement on human nature, but it does not mean the same thing as saying that each human has two legs, which is clearly false, since there are amputees, embryos, and the like. It is making a statement about the generally fallen nature of man.

Second, Mary in the Bible said she had a Savior, not that she needed a Savior. Now, it is true that she needed a Savior, but her Savior, Jesus Christ, her Son, had already saved her. Therefore, she was no longer in need, but clearly had a Savior.

Third, I don't recall a part in Scripture saying that Mary questioned Jesus. I recall one saying that His "brothers and sisters," that is, His relatives, were questioning Him, but not His mother questioning Him. Please point it out to me.

Finally, to answer your first question last, the blessed Virgin bore Jesus in a fuller way than anyone ever has, Body, Blood, Soul, and Divinity in His Local Presence, rather than His Sacramental Presence. Since we know that if we receive Communion while in mortal sin (i.e. without grace), we will drink judgment on ourselves and it will destroy us (unless we repent of it), and we only receive His Sacramental Presence, it follows that Mary, receiving His Local Presence, would have to be far more sanctified. If we take the Ark of the Covenant as a foreshadowing, then she would have to be of pure nature, that is, completely free of spot or blemish. So she is the Immaculate Conception.

[Budge]

[quote]Third, I don't recall a part in Scripture saying that Mary questioned Jesus. I recall one saying that His "brothers and sisters," that is, His relatives, were questioning Him, but not His mother questioning Him. Please point it out to me.[/quote]

There is this time...at 12:46 ¶ [b]While he yet talked to the people, behold, [his] mother and his brethren stood without, desiring to speak with him.[/b]
T
Mat 12:47 [b]Then one said unto him, Behold, thy mother and thy brethren stand without, desiring to speak with thee.

Mat 12:48 But he answered and said unto him that told him, Who is my mother? and who are my brethren?

Mat 12:49 And he stretched forth his hand toward his disciples, and said, Behold my mother and my brethren![/b]


Here is a time that SHOWS THAT MARY WAS ANYTHING BUT PERFECT..


Luk 2:48 And when they saw him, they were amazed: and his mother said unto him, Son, why hast thou thus dealt with us? behold, thy father and I have sought thee sorrowing.

Luk 2:49 And he said unto them, How is it that ye sought me? wist ye not that I must be about my Father's business?

Luk 2:50 [b]And they understood not the saying which he spake unto them.[/b]

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote name='Budge' post='1208482' date='Mar 5 2007, 09:35 AM']There is this time...at 12:46 ¶ [b]While he yet talked to the people, behold, [his] mother and his brethren stood without, desiring to speak with him.[/b]
T
Mat 12:47 [b]Then one said unto him, Behold, thy mother and thy brethren stand without, desiring to speak with thee.

Mat 12:48 But he answered and said unto him that told him, Who is my mother? and who are my brethren?

Mat 12:49 And he stretched forth his hand toward his disciples, and said, Behold my mother and my brethren![/b]
Here is a time that SHOWS THAT MARY WAS ANYTHING BUT PERFECT..
Luk 2:48 And when they saw him, they were amazed: and his mother said unto him, Son, why hast thou thus dealt with us? behold, thy father and I have sought thee sorrowing.

Luk 2:49 And he said unto them, How is it that ye sought me? wist ye not that I must be about my Father's business?

Luk 2:50 [b]And they understood not the saying which he spake unto them.[/b][/quote]

The first passage only shows that Jesus' relatives and mother wanted to speak with Him. It doesn't say anything about their sinfulness. Rather, Jesus saw an opportunity to teach what true family was. That does not mean that He was saying His family wasn't true family. Consequently, it doesn't mean at all that He was saying His mother wasn't sinless.

The second passage also only shows that Jesus has great wisdom and that the Blessed Virgin did not understand it all. Lack of understanding may in many cases be caused by a lack of holiness, but it doesn't necessarily have to be that way. St. Paul says that God's ways are unsearchable. That means that there are some bits of divine wisdom which no one, no matter how holy, could comprehend. So the Blessed Virgin, filled with grace, still doesn't understand everything. No one ever said she did.

God bless,

Micah

[Budge]

Mary is a human being, and it seems Rome wants to turn her into anything else BUT.

If Jesus saw his disciples as his TRUE family, then why would your church elevate his human family to the level it has when it comes to Mary?

We may love our biological families as Christians, but our true family will be those who are saved in Christ with us in heaven. Other followers of Christ.

Rome elevates relational ties ABOVE the lesson Jesus is preaching here.

The second passages shows that Mary has human limitations because she did NOT understand.

This means Mary had lack of discernment to put it frankly. This shows she was an ordinary individual with faults and foillbles like any other human being.

I believe the real Mary is in heaven wtih God. Her personality as shown in the BIble does not match even the teachings of Rome.

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote name='Budge' post='1208532' date='Mar 5 2007, 11:38 AM']Mary is a human being, and it seems Rome wants to turn her into anything else BUT.

If Jesus saw his disciples as his TRUE family, then why would your church elevate his human family to the level it has when it comes to Mary?[/quote]

Remember the terms of this debate. The Catechism is to be used whenever the Church is said to be teaching something. You claim that the Church elevates Mary to something beyond human. Please show me from the Catechism where it says that Mary is beyond human.

[quote]We may love our biological families as Christians, but our true family will be those who are saved in Christ with us in heaven. Other followers of Christ.

Rome elevates relational ties ABOVE the lesson Jesus is preaching here. [/quote]Not at all. Jesus' Mother also happens to be His most faithful follower. If she were a horrible sinner, we would not honor her, even though she would be related to Jesus. We honor her because through her faith she was able to accept the Holy Spirit and became the Mother of God.

[quote]The second passages shows that Mary has human limitations because she did NOT understand.[/quote]

Uh huh. The Church never said otherwise.

[quote]This means Mary had lack of discernment to put it frankly. This shows she was an ordinary individual with faults and foillbles like any other human being. [/quote]No, it only means that she didn't get it right away, just like most people might not get it right away. It most certainly doesn't indicate a lack of discernment, as a few verses later, we are told that she kept those things in her heart.

[quote]I believe the real Mary is in heaven wtih God. Her personality as shown in the BIble does not match even the teachings of Rome.[/quote]

You have yet to prove that you know what Rome teaches about Mary.

God bless,

Micah