Debate Between Budge And Raphael

[Thy Geekdom Come]

Budge, I challenge you to a debate.

No one but the two of us will be allowed to post. Such a post will be deleted. The only exceptions will be other moderators who are not adding to the debate, but simply reminding either of us of the rules (I, in turn, will not moderate in this thread, but will leave it to them if either of us gets out of hand). dUSt, of course, can do whatever he likes.

The Catechism of the Catholic Church and Scripture will be the sources.

It will be purely doctrinal...no "I heard a Catholic say once that..." kind of experiential proofs. Scripture and the CCC.

I'll provide three topics and you see which one you'd like:

[b]1. Mary (pick one of the four dogmas or the fifth doctrine)[/b][indent]a. Mother of God (Dogma)
b. Perpetual Virgin (Dogma)
c. Immaculate Conception (Dogma)
d. Assumption (Dogma)
e. Mother in the Order of Grace (Doctrine)[/indent][b]2. The Authority of the Magisterium[/b]
[b]3. The Eucharist[/b]

Feeling up to it?

[Budge]

Lets start with the Immaculate Conception.
[b]
Luk 11:27 ¶ And it came to pass, as he spake these things, a certain woman of the company lifted up her voice, and said unto him, Blessed [is] the womb that bare thee, and the paps which thou hast sucked.

Luk 11:28 But he said, Yea rather, blessed [are] they that hear the word of God, and keep it.[/b]

[quote]491 Through the centuries the Church has become ever more aware that Mary, "full of grace" through God, was redeemed from the moment of her conception. That is what the dogma of the Immaculate Conception confesses, as Pope Pius IX proclaimed in 1854:

The most Blessed Virgin Mary was, from the first moment of her conception, by a singular grace and privilege of almighty God and by virtue of the merits of Jesus Christ, Savior of the human race, preserved immune from all stain of original sin.[/quote]

[Thy Geekdom Come]

Okay. I accept your Scripture and Catechism references, but did you want to use them to argue anything?

[Budge]

Ok some questions for you about Immaculate Conception.

1. If Mary was immaculately conceived why not her mother or grandmother, right down the line?

2. Why does the woman in Rev 12 feel pain if she is supposed to be Mary who was sin-free and childbirth is the result of sin?

3. If Mary was supposely sin-free why did she go give a sin-offering at the temple--the turtle doves?

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote name='Budge' post='1107982' date='Nov 1 2006, 08:44 PM']
Ok some questions for you about Immaculate Conception.

1. If Mary was immaculately conceived why not her mother or grandmother, right down the line?

2. Why does the woman in Rev 12 feel pain if she is supposed to be Mary who was sin-free and childbirth is the result of sin?

3. If Mary was supposely sin-free why did she go give a sin-offering at the temple--the turtle doves?
[/quote]
Am I to understand that you are abandoning the references you earlier made in order to ask these questions, or did you still want to elaborate on them by asking a question relating to them?

1. Many people argue that if, in order to have an immaculate flesh, Christ needed to get it from His Mother, why didn't she need to receive hers from her mother? This misunderstands the reasoning behind the Immaculate Conception. The Immaculate Conception was necessary because Christ is God and needed a worthy vessel. If it had merely do with having pure flesh, Mary could have been sinful and Christ could Himself have been the Immaculate Conception. However, Mary had to be because she was going to bear God. Mary's mother did not, because she didn't have to bear God.

2. The woman in Revelation 12 is not primarily Mary. The woman is primarily the Church. However, because Mary is a model of the Church and particularly related to the Church, the woman is taken as a sign of both. The pain of childbirth has been interpreted as Mary's heart being pierced by the sword. Remember, images and visions are rarely straightforward and rarely have just one meaning.

3. Mary was humble and, following her Son, subjected herself to the law although she was not bound by it.

However, none of these really get to the heart of the matter. I was actually hoping you would go with elaborating on your first point rather than just having me qualify certain things.

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[Thy Geekdom Come]

I'm starting to feel a little neglected here.

[Thy Geekdom Come]

Has Budge been on today?

[Thy Geekdom Come]

Okay, I probably should have set a default time limit.

[i]Note to self: set default time limit next time.[/i]

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote name='CatholicCid' post='1111905' date='Nov 5 2006, 02:48 PM']
I've never seen a 1 on 1 debate... Does a 4 day lull suggest that Raphael has stupified Budge with his logic and won?
[/quote]
No. Budge hasn't posted much in those 4 days, I don't think.

Anyway, I was serious when I said no other posters. Please. Proper form in debate is essential, even if you're not joining in the debate itself. Thank you.

God bless,

Micah

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[Thy Geekdom Come]