Was I Better Off Back Then?

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote name='Budge' post='1108567' date='Nov 2 2006, 12:01 PM']
[b]FAITH[/b]
[/quote]
No, that's what you believe to be the subjective cause for Christ's grace's coming to you. That doesn't answer the question. By what means does grace come to an individual soul? I asked the how, you gave the why.

[jswranch]

Ladies and Gentlemen,
This is the best deffinition of Pelagianism I have ever seen.
[quote name='Raphael' post='1108555' date='Nov 2 2006, 07:47 AM']
Budge, by what means does God's grace come to you?
[/quote]
[quote name='Budge' post='1108558' date='Nov 2 2006, 07:53 AM']
God's grace came to us via what Christ did for us.[/quote]
[quote name='Raphael' post='1108562' date='Nov 2 2006, 07:57 AM']
You didn't answer my question. I asked how Christ's grace came to you. Christ's grace came in general by what He did for us, but by what means did you in particular receive what He earned?
[/quote]
[quote name='Budge' post='1108567' date='Nov 2 2006, 08:01 AM']
[b]FAITH[/b]
[/quote]
So once you have faith, then you get grace????????? This is the heresy of pelagius. He, like Budge, was wrong. Grace gives us the power to have faith. It is not our faith that brings us the grace that saves us (first installment).

Edited November 2, 2006 by jswranch

[mulls]

quick testimony in light of Raphael's question:

the last year and a half has been the hardest of my life. problems and trials all over the place. one major one that wouldn't go away. i prayed about it incessantly.

i would pray "God, i need you to take this away from me......God i need help with this....God i need you to give me this and that.....God i need you to guide me with....." so on and so forth

everything came to a culmination over the summer. i believe i got spiritually attacked at one point. my prayers got much smaller, much like Gideon's army. they went from "God help we with whatever" to "God i need your grace."

that was my prayer for a long time, and the Lord responded. but things were still bad.

it finally clicked one day, what the Lord was trying to communicate to me. i woke up and simply said "God i need YOU!" that was the prayer the Lord was cultivating in my heart for such a long time, making it clear that i needed to depend on Him, and not the gifts or the help or the deliverance or whatever i was specifically praying for. He was knocking my prayers down, like Gideon's army, to make sure He got the glory. boy, did He ever.

this relates to the question, because when i recognize i'm in need of God's grace, i ask for it. and i'm beginninng, thankfully, to ask it when i don't think i "need" it per se, when i'm doing fine, but recognizing that i can no longer try to do things in my own strength. like waking up and saying "Lord i need you to get through this day," even though i don't consider any trial to be awaiting me in particular.

bold access to the Father, ask and receive, that's where i find the grace to be.

[jswranch]

[quote name='Budge' post='1108553' date='Nov 2 2006, 07:41 AM']
Michelle probably succumbed to what is called the undertow by Mary Ann Collins. I know Catholics who have been saved personally and who went back in or stayed in. One acquaintance, left, is born again, shows the fruits but gave in to her mother and husband to stay within the Catholic church. Her mother actually cried and shouted to get her back in. Many are guilted back in, the fear, family pressures and more can be immense.[/quote]

However, such is not the case of Michelle. She was not married. Her mother did not cry and yell. She was not guilted back by fear. Why dont you ask her yourself.

[quote name='Budge' post='1108553' date='Nov 2 2006, 07:41 AM'] Some falsely think they can reform the Catholic Church which bibilically is shown as impossible. [/quote]

There is not Catholic doctrine contrary to scripture. There is no scripture contrary to any Catholic doctrine. The bible is the most Catholic book ever made.

[quote name='mulls' post='1108660' date='Nov 2 2006, 09:25 AM']
quick testimony in light of Raphael's question:...[/quote]

Bravo! Now you are beginning to sound like any great Catholic saints. Have you ever read them? They sound like your testimony.

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote name='jswranch' post='1108649' date='Nov 2 2006, 01:17 PM']
Ladies and Gentlemen,
This is the best deffinition of Pelagianism I have ever seen.
So once you have faith, then you get grace????????? This is the heresy of pelagius. He, like Budge, was wrong. Grace gives us the power to have faith. It is not our faith that brings us the grace that saves us (first installment).
[/quote]
Good point. I didn't even stop to think that faith only comes by God's grace. Of course, at that point, grace hasn't entered the soul but moves it from without, since one isn't in the state of grace until they accept by cooperating with the grace in living faith (which itself is a gift of grace).

[mulls]

jsw,

check out Romans 5:2, i think this is what Budge is talking about.

i read that article. it didn't do much for me. came off like he was repenting of using brainwash-tactics as a protestant. "want to lead somebody out of the Catholic church? well, here's the formula: A-B-C and you're done!"

my goal is to point people to Christ. atheist, jew, catholic, non-catholic. i'm not attatched to labels, i take nothing for granted.



[quote]Bravo! Now you are beginning to sound like any great Catholic saints.[/quote]

what makes you say that? i'm being me.

i haven't read any catholic saints, but i will. i'm addicted to reading right now. i'm a learner. i've got some augustine on my amazon wishlist. i'm also plodding through "The Imitation of Christ" by a'Kempis right now, which catholics seem to love.


if you're my friend you'll buy me a book from my wishlist :

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='mulls' post='1108673' date='Nov 2 2006, 11:39 AM']

i haven't read any catholic saints, but i will. i'm addicted to reading right now. i'm a learner. i've got some augustine on my amazon wishlist. i'm also plodding through "The Imitation of Christ" by a'Kempis right now, which catholics seem to love.
if you're my friend you'll buy me a book from my wishlist :
[/quote]
Ah you are right about the love for that book!!!! Read a section at a time and let it sink in, then when you are done start all over again. :

[dUSt]

[quote name='mulls' post='1107649' date='Nov 1 2006, 03:04 PM']
So my question is, was I better off as a church-going Catholic, being obedient to the only thing I knew (go to mass and believe in God) who lived a hypocritical, sinful lifestyle the other 6 days a week, or am I better off now, a born-again Christian, walking with the Lord as my number one priority in life, but having rejected everything Catholic?
[/quote]
You were better off back then.

What has happened since then is that you matured. The grace that was given to you in Baptism, Communion, Confession, Confirmation, started manifesting itself as you matured socially and mentally. Unfortunately, the Catholic church you attended probably had a priest that gave boring homilies, and the church you attended with your friend had an exciting pastor. You weren't able to distinguish the "presentation" from the "content", so naturally looked at your renewed faith in Christ as something very non-Catholic.

I would bet my house that if you never went to your friend's church, and continued to attend mass and receive the sacraments, your spirituality would eventually have caught up as you naturally matured, and you'd be an "on fire" Catholic today.

Unfortunately, you chose to follow Christ in your own personal way instead of the way He intended. Maybe it was the spark you needed, and armed with this zeal you will come home and be an awesome witness for His church--and follow Him in His way and not your own.

Our testimonies are remarkably similar. In fact, almost exactly the same. The difference is, the non-denominational church I started attending actually forced me to study and renew my faith in the Catholic church, and for you, it did the vice-versa.

God bless.

[mulls]

[quote]You weren't able to distinguish the "presentation" from the "content"[/quote]

i addressed that with anomaly. it was a clear distinction. regardless, if the presentation was lame, the content still would have got me. no doubt.

[quote]I would bet my house that if you never went to your friend's church, and continued to attend mass and receive the sacraments, your spirituality would eventually have caught up as you naturally matured, and you'd be an "on fire" Catholic today.[/quote]

I would so take you up on that bet. If I hadn't been changed, I'd probably be, at best, a borderline alcoholic by now, and a sexual deviant.

And if you believe that would have been the case for me, is that also the case for every Catholic in the whole world that goes to mass and receives the sacraments? Do they all become "on fire" Catholics, in due time?

[quote]Unfortunately, you chose to follow Christ in your own personal way instead of the way He intended. [/quote]

I was choosing to follow Christ in my own personal way. Go to mass, check in, check out, and "be a good person" by my own standards. I thought I was fine, spiritually speaking.

But then He called, and required my life of me. That certainly was not my intention. I didn't want that huge paradigm shift. I didn't want to lose most of my friends and be alienated from most of my family. I didn't want to give up my sinful lifestyle. But by His grace, I was able to count the cost, and understand that following Christ, as He was calling me, was worth it.

[Budge]

[quote] The difference is, the non-denominational church I started attending actually forced me to study and renew my faith in the Catholic church[/quote]

Anyone noticing a theme here how even Catholics are having to leave the Catholic Church to go get some spiritual food?

I know Catholics in my town who go to Mass and then attend Bible studies and events at non-Catholic churches to bolster things.

[mulls]

[quote name='Budge' post='1108697' date='Nov 2 2006, 11:58 AM']
Anyone noticing a theme here how even Catholics are having to leave the Catholic Church to go get some spiritual food?

I know Catholics in my town who go to Mass and then attend Bible studies and events at non-Catholic churches to bolster things.
[/quote]

I see this too on campus. The Catholics who really care about their faith, guess which ministries and fellowships they join?

Not the Catholic ones.

[Anomaly]

[quote name='mulls' post='1108699' date='Nov 2 2006, 12:00 PM']
I see this too on campus. The Catholics who really care about their faith, guess which ministries and fellowships they join?

Not the Catholic ones.
[/quote]I agree, but the problem is fundamentally 'cultural' problem, not a theological problem. The culture surrounding the theology is very important, but it's the imperfect human element we bring to the party. Catholics tend to believe that their 'culture' is perfect because it's part of the 'infallible Church'. Prottys tend to sub-divide and come up with new theology based on cultural practice. Pick your poison.

[Mateo el Feo]

[quote name='Budge' post='1108697' date='Nov 2 2006, 11:58 AM']Anyone noticing a theme here how even Catholics are having to leave the Catholic Church to go get some spiritual food?

I know Catholics in my town who go to Mass and then attend Bible studies and events at non-Catholic churches to bolster things.[/quote]A funny story about the guy who leads my Bible study. He used to attend a non-denom Bible study, and they actually asked him to lead the study. Basically, any Christian point of view was welcome, as long as it wasn't Catholicism. So, he'd just make the Catholic arguments without attaching the Catholic label. People were quite open to the Catholic Truth, because it was Biblical, historical, and logical.

I do notice the tendency for Catholics to leave the Church for "Bible churches" when they are ignorant, while Evangelical/non-denom/etc Christians come to the Catholic Church as a result of having educated themselves about the Holy Scriptures, history, etc.

Ignorance leads people out of the Church...education leads them into the Church.

Yeah, it's sad that so many Catholics are ignorant about their faith. But I'd be much more concerned if we were on the other side of the equation: if we took in only the ignorant and we alienatied those who were educated and those devoted to Our Lord.

Edited November 2, 2006 by Mateo el Feo

[Budge]

[quote]
Ignorance leads people out of the Church...education leads them into the Church.[/quote]

This is an empty slogan since you claim anyone is IGNORANT who doesnt agree with the Catholic Church.

[Jasvon]

[quote]You access this grace via FAITH...[/quote]

You're right, Budge, so why did you lack faith in the Sacraments....a Source of Grace?

God bless you