mulls Posted November 1, 2006 Author Share Posted November 1, 2006 Raphael, I hope you're not honing in on the "liveliness of the service" argument. sure, it did something great for me at the time, but ultimately that is a shallow thing to base assumptions on. i'm not your stereotype young. evangelical who doesn't like church if it's not a rock concert. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KizlarAgha Posted November 1, 2006 Share Posted November 1, 2006 [quote name='Raphael' post='1107722' date='Nov 1 2006, 04:41 PM'] What I mean is that sometimes those who objectively have less in terms of the faith (Protestants, Orthodox, etc.) [/quote] That's a totally subjective claim. : Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thy Geekdom Come Posted November 1, 2006 Share Posted November 1, 2006 [quote name='mulls' post='1107751' date='Nov 1 2006, 06:54 PM'] Raphael, I hope you're not honing in on the "liveliness of the service" argument. sure, it did something great for me at the time, but ultimately that is a shallow thing to base assumptions on. i'm not your stereotype young. evangelical who doesn't like church if it's not a rock concert. [/quote] No, of course. However, it goes with all else non-Catholic. Those who do better with less are still using less. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mulls Posted November 1, 2006 Author Share Posted November 1, 2006 (edited) [quote]That's a totally subjective claim.[/quote] haha yea i saw that, i let that one slide.... Edited November 1, 2006 by mulls Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anomaly Posted November 1, 2006 Share Posted November 1, 2006 [quote name='mulls' post='1107738' date='Nov 1 2006, 04:50 PM'] you mean, like Pharoah? no, i don't think it was that severe. but i did, however, harden my conscience over time. i always had a strong understanding of right and wrong, but the more i dabbled with deeper sin, the easier it was to justify my behavior. especially when i would go to mass and confession....i would go in feeling guilty, but i would come over feeling nice and clean. and ready for some more action. [/quote] We all can abuse grace, or ignore it. Even the prodigal son could have left the Father's house again if he wanted. Working with Grace is a lifetime journey, tending our faith garden, so to speak. God is generous, we get graces through many sources. We can choose to work them into the soil, or just lie there in piles. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thy Geekdom Come Posted November 1, 2006 Share Posted November 1, 2006 [quote name='KizlarAgha' post='1107752' date='Nov 1 2006, 06:54 PM'] That's a totally subjective claim. : [/quote] Not at all. Catholicism has the fullness of the faith (we cling to the truth of everything Jesus said). Protestants reject some of it. Orthodox reject some of it. If we take Jesus' teachings as the standard, then Catholics have more of the faith than all others. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KizlarAgha Posted November 1, 2006 Share Posted November 1, 2006 [quote name='Raphael' post='1107770' date='Nov 1 2006, 04:58 PM'] Not at all. Catholicism has the fullness of the faith (we cling to the truth of everything Jesus said). Protestants reject some of it. Orthodox reject some of it. If we take Jesus' teachings as the standard, then Catholics have more of the faith than all others. [/quote] Micah, that's not true. You cling to one interpretation of everything Jesus said. In fact, considering the ADDITION of the filioque, I would say Catholicism is a branch off of the real thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mulls Posted November 1, 2006 Author Share Posted November 1, 2006 [quote name='Anomaly' post='1107769' date='Nov 1 2006, 04:58 PM'] We all can abuse grace, or ignore it. Even the prodigal son could have left the Father's house again if he wanted. Working with Grace is a lifetime journey, tending our faith garden, so to speak. God is generous, we get graces through many sources. We can choose to work them into the soil, or just lie there in piles. [/quote] i guess the question would be, then, the power, or efficacy (didn't learn that word til i came to phatmass!) of grace, and how it is truly received (or how God really gives it) hearing the Word of Christ, faith and repentance ---> BAM!!! got smacked up with grace. i recognized it (faith is a gift), and i experienced it (i knew my life was changed, Holy Spirit in the house). but the sacramental grace....i'm not sure if i ever believed that sacraments, particularly the eucharist, "did something." but there was no evidence of that grace, if it was there. if i could recognize it, if i was stirred, convicted....i could have presumably acted upon it. but there was just nothing there. what could i have done? [quote name='Justified Saint' post='1107746' date='Nov 1 2006, 04:53 PM'] If you have rejected everything Catholic then you are probably a contradiction. [/quote] nice bumper sticker. explain? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KizlarAgha Posted November 1, 2006 Share Posted November 1, 2006 [quote name='mulls' post='1107779' date='Nov 1 2006, 05:04 PM'] i guess the question would be, then, the power, or efficacy (didn't learn that word til i came to phatmass!) of grace, and how it is truly received (or how God really gives it) hearing the Word of Christ, faith and repentance ---> BAM!!! got smacked up with grace. i recognized it (faith is a gift), and i experienced it (i knew my life was changed, Holy Spirit in the house). but the sacramental grace....i'm not sure if i ever believed that sacraments, particularly the eucharist, "did something." but there was no evidence of that grace, if it was there. if i could recognize it, if i was stirred, convicted....i could have presumably acted upon it. but there was just nothing there. what could i have done? [/quote] You could have done what you did - leave the Church. You're lucky to have felt that whole grace thing. I never felt anything from religion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mulls Posted November 1, 2006 Author Share Posted November 1, 2006 [quote name='KizlarAgha' post='1107783' date='Nov 1 2006, 05:06 PM'] You could have done what you did - leave the Church. You're lucky to have felt that whole grace thing. I never felt anything from religion. [/quote] go to an evangelical church. bounce around to a few until you find people you [b]know[/b] are sincere. sit in on some services, ask questions to people, and if you are really seeking, ask someone to take you under their wing. discipleship often starts before conversion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KizlarAgha Posted November 1, 2006 Share Posted November 1, 2006 [quote name='mulls' post='1107787' date='Nov 1 2006, 05:09 PM'] go to an evangelical church. bounce around to a few until you find people you [b]know[/b] are sincere. sit in on some services, ask questions to people, and if you are really seeking, ask someone to take you under their wing. discipleship often starts before conversion. [/quote] I don't think the evangelicals want me, Mulls, no offense. But thanks for the offer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mulls Posted November 1, 2006 Author Share Posted November 1, 2006 [quote name='KizlarAgha' post='1107791' date='Nov 1 2006, 05:10 PM'] I don't think the evangelicals want me, Mulls, no offense. But thanks for the offer. [/quote] is that really the way you feel? if so, that's my favorite attitude. if i were in your shoes, i would challenge Christians to be Christians....i would say "here i am, i'm an atheist, i want to learn about your God, what do you have to offer?" and hopefully, they would respond. you have a chance to know Christ, i believe, on such a deeper and more intimate level than those who have been in the faith for years. because when you do recognize Him, man.....you're gonna know it. step up to the plate! tell 'em mulls sent you! i got connections! : Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Justified Saint Posted November 1, 2006 Share Posted November 1, 2006 (edited) [quote] nice bumper sticker. explain? [/quote] It is more of an intuition I guess. Even the most ardent atheist would find something to agree on with the Catholic. I could be wrong though. Edited November 1, 2006 by Justified Saint Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mulls Posted November 1, 2006 Author Share Posted November 1, 2006 [quote name='Justified Saint' post='1107804' date='Nov 1 2006, 05:18 PM'] It is more of an intuition I guess. Even the most ardent atheist would find something to agree on with the Catholic. I could be wrong though. [/quote] i see. you have a point. i was using hyperbole for effect. i reject the vast majority of things catholic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anomaly Posted November 1, 2006 Share Posted November 1, 2006 Mulls, Maybe it's my age thing, and I have lot's more life to look back at. Not all of our reactions to grace are powerfull. You know there are lot's of Christians that are solid and quiet. I have as little doubt about grace in sacraments as grace in solid preaching. As you well know, what we can ignore one day, can obsess us the next. Without a doubt, you reacted strongly to the grace in the one church, and did not react much to the grace in the catholic church. Many times, how we react to grace is affected by our environment, who we are with, what our situation is at the time. Can you say you would have reacted the same if that preacher you heard was talking at a beer bash, instead of a church service? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now