Was I Better Off Back Then?

[mulls]

[quote]I challenge you to listen to Peter Kreeft's talk on ecumenism and discuss it. [/quote]


link me

[Anomaly]

[quote name='mulls' post='1116750' date='Nov 10 2006, 11:06 AM']
link me
[/quote]
My pleasure. I'm really interested in hearing your take on it.

[url="http://www.peterkreeft.com/audio/03_ecumenism.htm"]http://www.peterkreeft.com/audio/03_ecumenism.htm[/url]

[mulls]

i'm on it. i'm sick so this whole weekend will be dedicated to things of this nature.

[jswranch]

[quote name='mulls' post='1116919' date='Nov 10 2006, 02:31 PM']
i'm on it. i'm sick so this whole weekend will be dedicated to things of this nature.
[/quote]
Have you gotten the delivery yet?

[Katholikos]

[quote name='AngelFire001' post='1116682' date='Nov 10 2006, 04:21 AM']
I've seen many people of the faith defend the inquisition and the killings of heretics as if it was ok,going so far to claim that it was the secular leaders' fault (yeah you wish )! [/quote]

You are mischaracterizing what you have read. No one here has defended the killing of heretics or said that it was okay. You apparently are not a student of history, eh? The Church did not carry out sentences -- heresy was a capital crime against the State.

There were plenty of Protestant atrocities, which are never mentioned by the critics of the Catholic Church. Many more Catholics were killed by Protestants than heretics who lost their lives in the Inquisition. All loss of human life is a tragedy. Jews AND Catholics lost their lives in the Nazi Holocaust. One always hears about the Jews but rarely about the Catholics.

[quote]To say that the church is a house for sinners is a misstatement,..rather the opposite..I hate to say it but it has made me thought rather that this isn't even God's church at all..
[/quote]You are misquoting me. I wrote that the Church is a [b]hospital [/b] for sinners and a training ground for saints. There are many more saints than sinners.

Of course, if you say the Catholic Church is not God's church, that makes it true, right? It's the only Church that can trace its history in a direct continuum to the Apostles. But that counts for nothing when we have your opinion on the matter, right?

===============================
Blessed Father Damien, pray for us!

[mulls]

[quote name='jswranch' post='1117082' date='Nov 10 2006, 07:05 PM']
Have you gotten the delivery yet?
[/quote]

no sir. but i'm giddy with anticipation. :

[Anomaly]

mulls,
12:30 am and you haven't listened to Peter (Kreeft, that is)?
I know you're sick, but are you chicken too?

[AngelFire001]

[quote name='Cathoholic Anonymous' date='Nov 10 2006, 08:30 AM' post='1116713']
You misunderstand infallibility. Catholics believe that the Church (the mystical Body of Christ) is infallibly guided by the Holy Spirit. That doesn't mean that we think each and every individual Catholic is infallible. [/quote]
LOL! This is exactly what I expected..Don't presume that I don't know what infallibility is! I as a FORMER roman catholic definitely knows what it means..that a pope is utterly impossible in committing any mistakes concerning matters of faith and yet we know what most popes have done in history right? Many popes even contradicted each other.

[quote name='Cathoholic Anonymous' date='Nov 10 2006, 08:30 AM' post='1116713']
In the past many Catholics have done things that are horribly wrong - and we continue to go wrong today. We're sinners. But for me, the more awful acts that are carried out by Catholic people (including myself), the more beautiful and pure Church teaching appears. [/quote]

Again, more expected same answers..as Jesus said, "by their fruits you will know them!" And by far this church has done many evils through out history and it wasn't even pretty..if this was a corporation you'd have corporate accountability for every act you make and this is certainly true about the catholic church..and the reason that many catholic clergy committed evils during the past was because the Popes [u]approved[/u] them (case in point the witch huntings,inquisitions,crusades local and outside etc.) If you don't believe me just look at your history books..

[quote name='Cathoholic Anonymous' date='Nov 10 2006, 08:30 AM' post='1116713']
We don't always live up to the ideal. But the fact that the ideal has survived through generation upon generation of sinners should be ample proof that it is sustained by the Holy Spirit.[/quote]

True but this is hardly any proof of God's true church at all..paganism which has made a comeback is FAR older than christianity and yet it isn't the true religion so this argument hardly counts

[quote name='Cathoholic Anonymous' date='Nov 10 2006, 08:30 AM' post='1116713']
Do you think so? I believe Jesus accepted Judas as his disciple not for some pragmatic, utilitarian purpose ("Oh, he's going to be necessary one day") but because he loved him. And Judas' agonising remorse after he had carried out the betrayal shows that no matter how wrong he had gone, he loved Jesus too. He [i]was[/i] a true apostle. His greatest sin was not necessarily the betrayal of Christ, but the belief that he could never be forgiven. His story presents us with a choice: we can be like Judas, a sinner who condemns himself to death; or we can be like Peter (a sinner who also betrayed Jesus, in his own way)
[/quote]

Actually scriputre says that God can read the hearts of men..try reading Jeremiah you'll know for sure..Jesus certainly knew what Judas was like so He certainly knew that in order for the prophecies to be fulfilled you'd have to have someone like Judas Iscariot in your ranks..the only problem with Judas was that even though He could be forgiven,he didn't take Jesus' grace since he thought he could never be forgiven..thus he committed suicide..so still the point here is that even though God sometimes uses us to accomplish His plan,He doesn't infringe on our basic freedoms..

[quote name='Cathoholic Anonymous' date='Nov 10 2006, 08:30 AM' post='1116713']
Once again, popes are not infallible when they are solving maths equations, choosing the best breakfast cereal to have, speaking as private scholars, or making decisions of civil government. Their words are only infallible a.) when the Pope is teaching on faith and morals and, b.) when he is speaking [i]ex cathedra[/i]. As I mentioned before, the mere fact that the Church's teachings remain untarnished is a sign that they are under divine protection.[/quote]

Did I say that the pope is a mathematician, an astronomy or an economist?LOL! You assume that I don't know about infallibility hence you make erronous statements like these..so typical of catholicism to someone who critices it..I've been there and done that argument when I was a catholic and that doesn't even make any sense to justify the war against science,medicine,astronomy,etc. Even those who has known about medicine which used herbs to treat patients were accused as witches so don't even go by defending the what the church has done in the past..it is accountable for its actions

[quote name='Cathoholic Anonymous' date='Nov 10 2006, 08:30 AM' post='1116713']
As for Peter being a 'great apostle'...I agree with you. But he was also a liar, a coward, and a fool - and God forgave him. I doubt he suddenly became perfect after he had uttered the words, "You know I love you," on the shores of Galilee. He still had many human imperfections. But that did not compromise his ability to lead the Church.[/quote]

True but the Peter wasn't an adulterer, a murderer,an atheist, a satanist and sodomite which has what the majority of the popes have done in the past..I know this will be hard to accept especially katholikos who are hardcore catholics defending the inquisition to the very end,but these things happened and it just won't go away no matter what you do..

[quote name='Cathoholic Anonymous' date='Nov 10 2006, 08:30 AM' post='1116713']
Yes, you [i]have[/i] implied that the majority of priests are guilty of sex crimes. [/quote]
No, I implied that priests aren't as holy and humble as you think they are..outside they would show themselves as men who are the most Holiest of all people,the most humble and the most meek and have the previlege of being God's shepherd..but the truth is they are also capable of being adulterers,thieves and disrespectful just as any human being here on earth.

[quote name='Cathoholic Anonymous' date='Nov 10 2006, 08:30 AM' post='1116713']
In this paragraph, you seem to be saying that the only reason the percentages are not higher is because people aren't willing to talk about abuse. That argument just doesn't hold up. In Britain, the highest number of sexual abuse cases occur within the teaching and medical professions rather than in the clergy. Are we expected to assume, based on your logic, that a huge number of teachers, doctors, etc. are committing sex crimes unrecorded? No one would dream of smearing the reputation of our educational and medical establishments in this way - but no one seems to have a problem with making such statements (implicit or overt) about the Church.[/quote]

Again the problem with this is that I'm not even proving anything..LOL! Just as I said,the number of priests who are abusive isn't immediately shown is because they hide under the shroud of religion and anybody who's been abused doesn't immediately testify and show up..case in point the US sex scandal of Roman Catholicism when it took more than 30 years for the victims to have the guts to say,this man raped me and abused me so and so..

[quote name='Cathoholic Anonymous' date='Nov 10 2006, 08:30 AM' post='1116713']
What is sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander. Scandals happen in other churches, too - or haven't you been reading about the furore currently surrounding evangelical leader Ted Haggard? His sin doesn't mean his church is unChristian. There are also numerous other cases of high-profile evangelical leaders sinning and committing crimes (Jimmy Swaggart and James and Tammy Bakker, just to start with the famous ones).
[/quote]

Again read the above comment,this goes for all religions!Sheesh,I was just pointing out the Catholic church because thats the topic today :

[quote name='Cathoholic Anonymous' date='Nov 10 2006, 08:30 AM' post='1116713']
Does their behaviour alter the truth of the Gospel one iota? No.
Of course they're not immune to temptations! They shouldn't be. They're not robots. They're human beings. Being 'holy' doesn't mean being immune to temptation - it means having the strength and the courage to rise above it. Priests accept challenges that most people don't in the quest for personal holiness. They have farther to fall if they do fall. But the fact remains that the majority of priests are not involved in the kind of sordid love affairs that you describe. Your evidence is anecdotal, not empirical, and it is not representative of the entire Catholic population. [/quote]

I never even said that most of them are like this..have I?Again read my post,I never even implied all of them do that..just pointing out that they can be corrupt as any human being here on earth,sheesh..

[quote name='Cathoholic Anonymous' date='Nov 10 2006, 08:30 AM' post='1116713']
Erm...it's compulsory for priests to say Mass every single day, even if they're totally alone. Money has nothing to do it. This sounds like sheer rumour to me.
[/quote]

Again you don't understand..the Philippines is a poor country..to have better things in life in the church as a priest you'd have to have at least bigger offerings..to those in the provinces which has roughly the same population as they do here in the cities..and yet why are church buildings smaller,less taken cared of..the parish less provided and priests almost absent in mass. I'll tell you why,It comes down to you guessed it- MONEY! Many priests here are unwilling to hold mass whose offerings do not go to the quota of the minimum wage..most flock to the cities and hold mass there instead of the provinces where they have the same population and yet less money..ever even wonder why they do that?Again- MONEY!

[quote name='Cathoholic Anonymous' date='Nov 10 2006, 08:30 AM' post='1116713']
WHAT? I am studying mediaeval literature at the moment and the Lollards crop up often. The Lollard movement began in England in the late fourteenth century - that's only seven hundred years ago! The Waldensians were founded in 1173 by a man named Peter Waldo, who lived in Lyon, France. The Paulicans were a dualist sect that rose up in Armenia in the seventh century - they too had no connection with the apostolic church in the Holy Land, which began seven hundred years before them. Anabaptism is the oldest of the lot - the groundwork for the movement's theology was laid in the fifteenth century, but there was no established Anabaptist church until the sixteenth. I don't know what on earth you mean by a 'sabbath keeping church', so I can't address that, but I can say that Arianism was a Christological viewpoint that only arose in the fourth century. It can hardly be said to have originated at the same time as our holy apostolic church. [/quote]

Again, you misunderstand me..the church you said is the ONLY true church and you say that protestants emerged from the church..yet there are evidences that point out that there were already churches in those times even before the reformation. And you've got the facts wrong, Waldensians didn't come from Peter Waldo,he was named waldo because he was taught waldensian doctrines,Arianism was a well known organized church..you said you wanted churches earlier than catholicism..well there were the nazarenes,Arianism,donatists, manicheans,montanists,novationalists and many others. These churches had no connection the Catholic church whatsoever so the argument that the Catholic church is the only apostolic church to have ever existed at the time is uterly false.

[quote name='Cathoholic Anonymous' date='Nov 10 2006, 08:30 AM' post='1116713']
I have a class now, but I will return later on. I daresay someone else on here can refute the usual tired accusations regarding Galileo and Co. But before I go:
You have completely misread what was said. Catholics believe that there [i]are[/i] extraordinary means of God's grace and you don't have to be a Catholic to receive them. However, the [b]fullness[/b] of grace is only found within the Sacraments. There is a difference.
[/quote]

Well, goodluck on your class..I just hope you make it :
And to the argument that the sacraments are the only source of full grace. How do you even know that the Catholic Church is the only source of truth since you so point that argument out?All religions claim to have the source of truth..so this argument is hardly relevant at all..