Guest T-Bone Posted November 1, 2006 Share Posted November 1, 2006 [quote name='catholicinsd' post='1107712' date='Nov 1 2006, 01:36 PM'] They helped a lot. So they shot a menatlly unstable person. Now, it doen't matter if was a taser of not, you don't shoot a mentally unstable person. [/quote] Then how would you suggest subduing them? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Winchester Posted November 1, 2006 Share Posted November 1, 2006 [quote name='CatholicCid' post='1107252' date='Nov 1 2006, 01:48 AM'] Why wouldn't they just force him too the ground? What would he do, swing with the bible? Why were they even after him? [/quote] Because the use of a taser is more accepted, now. And it's safer for the cops, who are enforcing the law and have families to go home to. It's rare to get a whupping if you comply. Very rare. [quote name='CatholicCid' post='1107256' date='Nov 1 2006, 01:56 AM'] Just as the cops shouldn't mess around with stun guns... If only the article talked a little bit more about why the cops came or what the charges would be for. [/quote] So you think it would be better to use clubs and guns. How many people have you subdued lately, all the while watching your back for idiots who think you should just leave the problem be? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CatholicCid Posted November 1, 2006 Share Posted November 1, 2006 (edited) As I said, I wish the article was a little more clear at the time. And since it has been and from the witness statement and such, I would now agree with the majority of the amount of force used. (I like to think I was pretty constant through this topic... Stating I wished there was more detail...) And 12 people subdued so far and counting. Edited November 1, 2006 by CatholicCid Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Winchester Posted November 1, 2006 Share Posted November 1, 2006 [quote name='catholicinsd' post='1107712' date='Nov 1 2006, 03:36 PM'] They helped a lot. So they shot a menatlly unstable person. Now, it doen't matter if was a taser of not, you don't shoot a mentally unstable person. [/quote] Yeah, because there's a magic spell that makes it so mentally unstable people can't hurt mentally stable people. How, pray tell, oh wise and experienced law enforcement officer, do we subdue the mentally unstable? Here's a scenario. You are a Captain on a fire engine and you get a run for a seizure call. It is evening and dark outside. You arrive at a house that is dark outside and dimly lit inside and a civilian points you in saying the patient is on the floor and "fell out" (unconcious.) You and another member of your crew enter the house, with the compliment of your crew (two more firefighters, four yet to arrive on the ambulance and squad) and find a man lying on the bathroom floor breathing irregularly. Your firefighters calls to the man and gets no response, so he moves closer, checking the area with his flashlight. The firefighter is now in a small hallway and you are in the door to the hallway. The patient jumps up and assaults your firefighter, biting him on the hand. Your call, what do you do? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
catholicinsd Posted November 1, 2006 Share Posted November 1, 2006 Yo peeps that support the cops in this situation- what did poor Roger do that was so wrong? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest T-Bone Posted November 1, 2006 Share Posted November 1, 2006 [quote name='catholicinsd' post='1108078' date='Nov 1 2006, 04:44 PM'] Yo peeps that support the cops in this situation- what did poor Roger do that was so wrong? [/quote] What did the law enforcement officers do that so so wrong? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anomaly Posted November 1, 2006 Share Posted November 1, 2006 [quote name='catholicinsd' post='1108078' date='Nov 1 2006, 07:44 PM'] Yo peeps that support the cops in this situation- what did poor Roger do that was so wrong? [/quote]You're kidding, right? Are you just a cop hater, or are you just trying to be contreversial? If the person was acting disturbed, then society should help him seek help before he hurts himself or some innocent passerby. That's why we have Baker Act laws. Maybe he hadn't taken his medication, maybe he was on drugs, maybe he suffered a blow to the head. The cops did not taser him with the idea that it would harm Roger. They believed it would incapacitate him so they could cuff him and take him to get some help. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Winchester Posted November 1, 2006 Share Posted November 1, 2006 [quote name='Winchester' post='1108050' date='Nov 1 2006, 06:32 PM'] Yeah, because there's a magic spell that makes it so mentally unstable people can't hurt mentally stable people. How, pray tell, oh wise and experienced law enforcement officer, do we subdue the mentally unstable? Here's a scenario. You are a Captain on a fire engine and you get a run for a seizure call. It is evening and dark outside. You arrive at a house that is dark outside and dimly lit inside and a civilian points you in saying the patient is on the floor and "fell out" (unconcious.) You and another member of your crew enter the house, with the compliment of your crew (two more firefighters, four yet to arrive on the ambulance and squad) and find a man lying on the bathroom floor breathing irregularly. Your firefighters calls to the man and gets no response, so he moves closer, checking the area with his flashlight. The firefighter is now in a small hallway and you are in the door to the hallway. The patient jumps up and assaults your firefighter, biting him on the hand. Your call, what do you do? [/quote] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
catholicinsd Posted November 1, 2006 Share Posted November 1, 2006 [quote name='T-Bone' post='1108096' date='Nov 1 2006, 07:49 PM'] What did the law enforcement officers do that so so wrong? [/quote] Umm. I don't know. Killing a child perhaps. [quote name='Anomaly' post='1108097' date='Nov 1 2006, 07:50 PM'] You're kidding, right? Are you just a cop hater, or are you just trying to be contreversial? If the person was acting disturbed, then society should help him seek help before he hurts himself or some innocent passerby. That's why we have Baker Act laws. Maybe he hadn't taken his medication, maybe he was on drugs, maybe he suffered a blow to the head. The cops did not taser him with the idea that it would harm Roger. They believed it would incapacitate him so they could cuff him and take him to get some help. [/quote] I'm asking if shouting "I want Jesus" merits being tasered. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest T-Bone Posted November 2, 2006 Share Posted November 2, 2006 [quote name='catholicinsd' post='1108104' date='Nov 1 2006, 04:53 PM'] Umm. I don't know. Killing a child perhaps. [/quote] So you're saying that they intentionally did this? That they didn't follow reasonable procedures? That the law enforcent officers were negligent in some manner? [quote name='catholicinsd' post='1108104' date='Nov 1 2006, 04:54 PM'] I'm asking if shouting "I want Jesus" merits being tasered. [/quote] HE WAS NOT MERELY SHOUTING "I want Jesus"!!!! HE WAS ACTING IN AN AGITATED MANNER!!!! HE WAS COMBATIVE TOWARD POLICE OFFICERS!!!! He did not deserve to die, but the police did not act inappropriately. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Winchester Posted November 2, 2006 Share Posted November 2, 2006 catholicnsd, I gave you a fair scenario and I'd love it if you'd give me your solution. It's not fake; I exeperienced it first hand Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KizlarAgha Posted November 2, 2006 Share Posted November 2, 2006 Police have a responsibility to at least question people behaving bizarrely in public. The rights of the mentally ill are really important for me, and I think they're trampled on a regular basis, and that most people don't give a beaver dam. However, in this case, it was not wrong of the police to approach this man. I will explain: Erratic behavior can be caused by many different things. First and foremost, and what cops see most often, is abuse of drugs or alcohol. People who are intoxicated in that manner need to be taken from the streets because they are a real danger to themselves and others. They are in effect, not mentally competent to care for themselves. A second cause of erratic behavior like this can be a medical condition like diabetes. Some diabetics who haven't taken their medication can begin acting intoxicated. It is important that police stop these people in order to save their lives as they are in immediate danger of serious injury or death. Finally, mental illness like schizophrenia is a possible cause. This is a bit of a gray area, because schizophrenic people are not universally declared incompetent, and therefore have a choice in whether or not they take their medications. As such, the police still have a responsibility to approach the person to determine what is wrong. Where it goes from there is up to the officer's discretion. In all of these cases, there is a real risk of injury to the officers, and therefore they rightly proceed with caution. I think the problem in this case is not the officers, but rather an over-reliance on the use of tasers. They are good tools to have, but sometimes they provide too much of a quick fix option. At any rate, I don't think these officers would have tased him if they'd known he was going to be killed by it. They wouldn't have done it if they'd known it would cause permanent injury either. They have guns as well and chose not to draw those weapons for a reason. This is an unfortunate accident, but one which was unavoidable given current procedures. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anomaly Posted November 2, 2006 Share Posted November 2, 2006 [quote name='catholicinsd' post='1108104' date='Nov 1 2006, 07:54 PM'] Umm. I don't know. Killing a child perhaps. I'm asking if shouting "I want Jesus" merits being tasered. [/quote] "Family members of Roger Holyfield tell NewsChannel 5 he suffered from Bipolar Disorder. Police say he was ranting and combative when they confronted him Saturday night just a few blocks from the police station. The Chief of the Jerseyville Police Department did not want to go on camera, but released a statement about the incident Saturday night. Police say Holyfield was found walking in the 600 block of South State Street in Jerseyville. He was reportedly carrying a bible and a cordless house phone shouting, "I want my mom and Jesus." The statement indicates when officers approached him, Holyfield became combative and refused several warnings to stop. " I ask you if this behavior sounds like the person is in control of his facilities and seems to be aware of reality around him? So you would have just walked by him and let him jump in front of a truck, thinking it was a transporter beam that will take him to his mom and Jesus? Wow. You are a nice guy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
catholicinsd Posted November 2, 2006 Share Posted November 2, 2006 [quote]So you're saying that they intentionally did this? That they didn't follow reasonable procedures? That the law enforcent officers were negligent in some manner?[/quote] They intentionally fired the ttaser, they didn't intend for dear Roger's death, but they did fire. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KizlarAgha Posted November 2, 2006 Share Posted November 2, 2006 [quote name='catholicinsd' post='1108119' date='Nov 1 2006, 08:05 PM'] They intentionally fired the ttaser, they didn't intend for dear Roger's death, but they did fire. [/quote] If they didn't fire with lethal intent, then you don't really have a case. Their intent was to subdue him without injury. In most cases, that's the result of firing a taser. In fact, departments test tasers on themselves as part of the course in learning how to use it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts