A Challenge Of Sorts

[Socrates]

[quote name='KizlarAgha' post='1106955' date='Oct 31 2006, 09:19 PM']
All I had to do was read Romans and Corinthians. He was a bigoted Pharisee before his conversion, and he remained that way afterwards.
[/quote]
Nice job of labeling. Why was he a "bigoted Pharisee" - because he didn't preach modern liberal moral relativism, but actually preached Christ and that certain acts are right and wrong?

[KizlarAgha]

[quote name='Socrates' post='1106962' date='Oct 31 2006, 09:24 PM']
Nice job of labeling. Why was he a "bigoted Pharisee" - because he didn't preach modern liberal moral relativism, but actually preached Christ and that certain acts are right and wrong?
[/quote]

Read Corinthians 11. 1st Timothy 2: 11-15. I could add more, but why bother.

Edited November 1, 2006 by KizlarAgha

[Veritas]

[quote name='KizlarAgha' post='1106946' date='Oct 31 2006, 08:11 PM']
That's interesting. However, it's hard to convert people with personal experience (unless it's their personal experience). Oh, and Paul was never humbled, he just faked it so he could get canonized.
[/quote]

+

I was sharing a personal story -not trying to convert you. Plus, it's not just experience, it's also full of reasons (read carefully!) I'm assuming the Paul comment was a joke -since there was no canonization then!

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote name='JeffCR07' post='1106942' date='Oct 31 2006, 11:09 PM']
lol, you'll need a few more steps in that argument to make is valid :
[/quote]
I don't need to flesh it out. It's quite clear from common sense that it's true. Anything that exists must have a creator. First mover principle. If we exist, someone must have put us here.

[Socrates]

[quote name='KizlarAgha' post='1106960' date='Oct 31 2006, 09:22 PM']
Oh, come now Socrates, surely you've heard that we all originated from a puddle of goo and that this universe originated from an infinitely small, infinitely dense point of matter that then exploded :
[/quote]
Oh, that's a very convincing story!
A puddle of goo, by its own magical power, evolved into a living, rational human being!
A small dense point of matter just happened to explode of its own power, and just by chance became an ordered, working universe capable of producing intelligent life.

C'mon, I thought you were smarter than that!

Where did this "small dense point of matter" come from?

[Akalyte]

God is like Radio waves. We cant see them, but we know that they exist and are there. Take a look at all of creation. You'll notice its exactly that, creation. A design.

[KizlarAgha]

[quote name='Socrates' post='1106977' date='Oct 31 2006, 09:30 PM']
Oh, that's a very convincing story!
A puddle of goo, by its own magical power, evolved into a living, rational human being!
A small dense point of matter just happened to explode of its own power, and just by chance became an ordered, working universe capable of producing intelligent life.

C'mon, I thought you were smarter than that!

Where did this "small dense point of matter" come from?
[/quote]

That is the real question, isn't it? I find myself convinced wholly on the issue of evolution. And I don't think evolution necessarily gets in the way of Catholicism either. I mean, I'm no theologian so I guess it could. However, I try my best to be honest with my beliefs. I tried very hard to believe in a God, but I never really managed anything approaching faith. You can't get faith by working very hard I've learned. Anyway, as to the question of where the small dense point of matter came from - this is the sticking point I always find myself with. Science, for all its claims to truth, has no satisfactory answer.

[Socrates]

[quote name='KizlarAgha' post='1106966' date='Oct 31 2006, 09:25 PM']
Read Corinthians 11. 1st Timothy 2: 11-15. I could add more, but why bother.
[/quote]
And what of it? Paul speaks of proper behavior at church - though I can see why such matter might not appeal to an atheist.

Are you here to debate, or to hurl insults at the Saints of God? (looks like you're just an emo-driven attention-[hound] like your Satan-loving buddy!)

Edited November 1, 2006 by Socrates

[KizlarAgha]

[quote name='Socrates' post='1106982' date='Oct 31 2006, 09:34 PM']
And what of it? Paul speaks of proper behavior at church - though I can see why such matter what not appeal to an atheist.

Are you hear to debate, or to hurl insults at the Saints of God? (looks like you're just an emo-driven attention-[hound] like your Satan-loving buddy!)
[/quote]

I'm actually not here to debate. If you look at my first post, I'm here to listen to various explanations offered by phatmassers without ridiculing their beliefs or arguing with them. Forgive me, but I never can resist a passing shot at Paul.

[Socrates]

I don't have time to get into the whole intelligent-design debate in detail here, but I actually find it quite convincing. The human body (and those of other living creatures too) is a functioning machine many, many times more complex than any machine devised by man. (And this includes on the sub-cellular level.) I find it impossible that such a complex ordered functioning system could come about by forces of pure blind chance. I'd recommend reading [url="http://www.amazon.com/Darwins-Black-Box-Biochemical-Challenge/dp/0684834936/sr=1-1/qid=1162346574/ref=pd_bbs_1/002-9205297-9214448?ie=UTF8&s=books"][i]Darwin's Black Box: The Biochemical Challenge to Evolution[/i], by Michael Behe[/url]. (Read it with an open mind - Behe is much attacked, but most of the attacks seem to be straw-men arguments and emotionally-driven ad-hominems.)

And there's the whole "anthropic principle" - scientists tell us the range of physical conditions which make the existance of rational living beings such as human beings possible is actually very narrow. (Distance of earth from sun, composition of earth and sun, distance from asteroids and damaging bodies, position of sun in the galaxy, and the composition and physical laws of the universe itself) A slight change in any one of many factors would make intelligent life impossible. The chances of such conditions coming about by pure chance are infinitely small.
I have read the "anthropic principle" argued by people who are not Christian, nor even traditional deists.

Edited November 1, 2006 by Socrates

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote name='KizlarAgha' post='1106980' date='Oct 31 2006, 11:33 PM']
That is the real question, isn't it? I find myself convinced wholly on the issue of evolution. And I don't think evolution necessarily gets in the way of Catholicism either. I mean, I'm no theologian so I guess it could. However, I try my best to be honest with my beliefs. I tried very hard to believe in a God, but I never really managed anything approaching faith. You can't get faith by working very hard I've learned. Anyway, as to the question of where the small dense point of matter came from - this is the sticking point I always find myself with. Science, for all its claims to truth, has no satisfactory answer.
[/quote]
That's because science deals with the measurable. Infinitesimal moments of time are immeasurable. Infinite, intentional beings are immeasurable. The immeasurable belongs properly to the field of theology. Therefore, the answer must be theological, not scientific. Theology's answer is simple: creation must have a creator. Now, whether that creator is a loving God or a vengeful God depends on other things, but that He exists is plainly obvious from reason alone.

[Winchester]

There must be a fisrt cause. I don't believe a Christian god cna be proven, but one may arrive at the assurance of a philosopher's god.

[KizlarAgha]

[quote name='Socrates' post='1107034' date='Oct 31 2006, 10:10 PM']
I don't have time to get into the whole intelligent-design debate in detail here, but I actually find it quite convincing. The human body (and those of other living creatures too) is a functioning machine many, many times more complex than any machine devised by man. (And this includes on the sub-cellular level.) I find it impossible that such a complex ordered functioning system could come about by forces of pure blind chance. I'd recommend reading [url="http://www.amazon.com/Darwins-Black-Box-Biochemical-Challenge/dp/0684834936/sr=1-1/qid=1162346574/ref=pd_bbs_1/002-9205297-9214448?ie=UTF8&s=books"][i]Darwin's Black Box: The Biochemical Challenge to Evolution[/i], by Michael Behe[/url]. (Read it with an open mind - Behe is much attacked, but most of the attacks seem to be straw-men arguments and emotionally-driven ad-hominems.)

And there's the whole "anthropic principle" - scientists tell us the range of physical conditions which make the existance of rational living beings such as human beings possible is actually very narrow. (Distance of earth from sun, composition of earth and sun, distance from asteroids and damaging bodies, position of sun in the galaxy, and the composition and physical laws of the universe itself) A slight change in any one of many factors would make intelligent life impossible. The chances of such conditions coming about by pure chance are infinitely small.
I have read the "anthropic principle" argued by people who are not Christian, nor even traditional deists.
[/quote]


That's very true. Just one small example I used to use when I was Catholic - Ice is less dense than water. It is (to my knowledge) the only solid which is less dense than its liquid form. If ice were more dense than water it would sink rather than float and the oceans would freeze. It also so happens that liquid water is one of the prime prerequisites for life in general. So, if ice weren't less dense than water, there would probably be no life on earth at all.

However, I disagree on evolution. Evolution by natural selection is not chance. Rather, it holds that some animals (or plants even) will have different traits than others within the same species. Some of those traits are more advantageous than others. Therefore, the ones with the more advantageous traits will be more likely to survive and reproduce and thereby pass those traits on. I'll spare you the trip from bacteria to man, but the idea is that a series of small changes lead to the developments of new species and that these new species in turn change and become more complex until you reach man. It takes millions of years and has no apparent plan, but it isn't random.

Edited November 1, 2006 by KizlarAgha

[Kosh]

God exists because something can't come from nothing and something can't exist forever.

[Socrates]

[quote name='KizlarAgha' post='1107059' date='Oct 31 2006, 10:31 PM']
However, I disagree on evolution. Evolution by natural selection is not chance. Rather, it holds that some animals (or plants even) will have different traits than others within the same species. Some of those traits are more advantageous than others. Therefore, the ones with the more advantageous traits will be more likely to survive and reproduce and thereby pass those traits on. I'll spare you the trip from bacteria to man, but the idea is that a series of small changes lead to the developments of new species and that these new species in turn change and become more complex until you reach man. It takes millions of years and has no apparent plan, but it isn't random.
[/quote]
There is the problem of "irreducable complexity," though. There are many complex systems in a living organism, where if even one part of the system is changed or removed, the system fails. (Think like the different parts of a car or computer, but far more complex). I'm not denying that organisms may have changed over time, but random mutation and "natural selection" cannot account for all these complex functioning systems. Even a simple living cell is an incredibly complex machine (the cell is the "black box" of Behe's title). Read Behe for details..

Edited November 1, 2006 by Socrates