Evangelism At Any Price

[CatholicCid]

[quote name='mulls' post='1106656' date='Oct 31 2006, 06:06 PM']
i like talking evangelism.....what do you think about what i posted?
[/quote]

I like HSMom's response to it

While it might be semantics... It is an important one that makes the difference between a one sided presentation to a two sided conversation. If that's what you meant, then that's how I like to evangelize as well.

[Eia]

[quote name='Katholikos' post='1106502' date='Oct 31 2006, 04:00 PM']
What kind of Baptist is she? I was Southern (my denom was founded on the right to own slaves, but we didn't ever mention that).

----------------------------------------
"Katholikos" means Catholic in Greek.
Ex-Southern Baptist, agnostic, atheist

[/quote]

Ex-Southern Baptists represent!

-Eia, former Southern Baptist and former anti-Catholic

[suuran]

Her primary intention was to discuss your Catholicism, not the Bible per se, so I'd agree it was deceptive to make you think she just wanted to have a little Bible Study.

I...don't really tend to do much evangelism myself, given that I'm fairly shy and don't know too many non-Catholics. It's something I should probably work on. Still, I definitely agree that you should be honest about the fact that you want to discuss religion--trying to lure the other person into some kinda trap would be dishonorable.

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote name='Cathoholic Anonymous' post='1106132' date='Oct 31 2006, 02:45 PM']
Recently, a fellow student whom I've known for a year invited me to her room for a Bible study. She's a Baptist. Up until now I didn't think she was anti-Catholic, as we've been attending the same Christian Union meetings for the past three terms and occasionally doing work on social justice projects together. So when she invited me to her room to study the first eighteen verses of St John's Gospel, I was happy to accept - because I thought it was a genuine invitation to a genuine Bible study.

It wasn't. It was 'grill-a-Catholic' evening...and I was the steak. I got suspicious when we finished the 'Bible study' in just under ten minutes (how can you get through one of the most profound parts of St John's Gospel in ten minutes?!) and my friend said tentatively, "Do you mind if I ask you a question?" I could tell she was nervous because she kept breaking off in the middle of a word and starting again. Finally the question emerged:

"Why do Catholics worship the pope?"

It all went downhill from there. At the end of our discussion, which lasted for an hour, she gave me a hug and said, "I hope you're not offended. I just wanted to share my faith in Jesus with you."

She had shared her faith in [i]sola scriptura[/i] with me rather than anything else, but I didn't press the point. I wasn't at all offended that she had wanted to discuss Catholicism. She sounded sincerely interested and readily admitted it when she wasn't certain about something. But I [i]was[/i] offended that she had got me to her room under false pretences. Why not ask outright to have a discussion on Catholicism, rather than issuing an invitation to a Bible study that didn't exist?

Would anyone here ever lie outright or tell a half-truth in order to try and evangelise a person? If so, why? Does the end ever justify the means?

These questions are open to both Catholics and non-Catholics.
[/quote]

Next time someone tries that, start elaborating on the Scriptures they've been studying...you could pull numerous theological concepts out of those verses that would last for hours...and they might stop to think: wow, maybe the Catholics really do know their Bible.

[Budge]

I witness to Catholics all the time IRL, but I do think this girl went about it the wrong way, forming the basis on deception..ie "we are going to have a joint Bible study together!" was just misconcieved. That is not the way to form trust. When I witness to Catholics IRL, I am direct about what I believe and my intentions...

Witnessing to Catholics IRL is interesting, because many Catholics in the pews differ from Catholics that populate Catholic blogs and religious message boards. Many actually believe a smattering of Protestant and Catholic doctrine...{Prot influence is strong in America} and one Catholic I witnessed to for a long time {I no longer live in her town} watched Christian television, and had some Biblical truth mixed with Catholicism, ie she believed in salvation via faith, but believed Marian apparitions were true. Ive had at least 2 Catholics directly say to me they do not believe in transubstantiation. It is far different out in the world to witness to Catholics.

[cathoholic_anonymous]

[quote]Witnessing to Catholics IRL is interesting, because many Catholics in the pews differ from Catholics that populate Catholic blogs and religious message boards.[/quote]

I am the same person when I'm in the pews as I am when I'm on the Internet.

The majority of Catholics - but not all - who frequent religious message boards and keep blogs on Catholic themes are likely to be people who are hungry to learn about their faith. You won't find people who drop by their local church on Sunday (but who are involved in nothing else) visiting websites like Phatmass. That could explain the discrepancy.

[quote]one Catholic I witnessed to for a long time {I no longer live in her town} watched Christian television, and had some Biblical truth mixed with Catholicism, ie she believed in salvation via faith, but believed Marian apparitions were true.[/quote]

In other words, she was a true Catholic - although I prefer to say 'salvation by grace' rather than 'salvation by faith'. A lot of people seem to use these terms interchangeably, and they shouldn't. Even the faith of the most committed Christian can get wobbly from time to time. God's grace never does.

[quote]Ive had at least 2 Catholics directly say to me they do not believe in transubstantiation. [/quote]

And I've come across a Catholic - a regular Mass attendee, at that - who had never even heard of it. That doesn't make this trio Protestants in Catholic clothing. It makes them poorly educated about Church teaching. Before you can reject something, you have to know and understand it fully. Many 'cafeteria Catholics' aren't capable of doing that.

I am going to dedicate my rosary to catechists today. Does anybody want to join me?

[Budge]

[quote]
I am the same person when I'm in the pews as I am when I'm on the Internet. [/quote]

Thats good. So am I, I say the same stuff IRL I do here. Course for some reason I seem to pull it off better IRL...body language;)? Maybe love is something easier shown in person...


[quote]

The majority of Catholics - but not all - who frequent religious message boards and keep blogs on Catholic themes are likely to be people who are hungry to learn about their faith. You won't find people who drop by their local church on Sunday (but who are involved in nothing else) visiting websites like Phatmass. That could explain the discrepancy.[/quote]

Im with you there.

Also these boards I know are frequented by clergy, seminarians and those who run Catholic ministries.

[quote]
In other words, she was a true Catholic - although I prefer to say 'salvation by grace' rather than 'salvation by faith'. A lot of people seem to use these terms interchangeably, and they shouldn't. Even the faith of the most committed Christian can get wobbly from time to time. God's grace never does.[/quote]

She definied it as a Christian. Remember Catholics and Christians define justificiation and sanctification differently.
[quote]

And I've come across a Catholic - a regular Mass attendee, at that - who had never even heard of it. That doesn't make this trio Protestants in Catholic clothing. It makes them poorly educated about Church teaching. Before you can reject something, you have to know and understand it fully. Many 'cafeteria Catholics' aren't capable of doing that.[/quote]

I would say the majority of Catholics in the pews if you asked them...What does transubstantiation mean? wouldnt be able to answer.

There are a few Catholics Ive witnessed to also, who have said to me...Yes Budge, I realize there is much that is man-made and unscriptural in the Catholic church.

Prot influence in American Catholic churches is strong, that is more for the better. I do think there are plenty of proto-Protestants in the Catholic church, who in some cases if they did find out what the Catholic Church REALLY TAUGHT would run for the door.

A Catholic relative of mine even sent her children to a Prot/Evangelical Bible camp. I praised God for that one, I wanted her children to hear the gospel and God answered my prayer!

Even during my Catholic years, the church held a ecumenical Bible study with mainliners, I watched Christian television and went to Christian bookstores and bought books for Christian ladies that were evangelical in nature. I see this among many many Catholics that are in the pews....

Really it is far easier to witness IRL to Catholics then on message boards like this.

[Winchester]

The problem is, any time someone points out your understanding of Salvation as taught by the Church is wrong, you either ignore it or claim it's at odds with what the Church teaches. The problem, perhaps, is the same as in the Bible. The numbered divisions of the verses make it easier for people to grab what's useful rather than what's true. I've never thought we saved ourselves or that works saved us. I was never taught this, and it's not what the Church teaches. We participate in our salvation by our works because faith without works is dead. faith without works is dead. Apparently, faith and works are intertwined (according to God, through James, who apparently wrote that without chance of error) Faith without works is dead. The love of God is not a mere pursuit of the mind (the whole visiting the sick. That's a work, right? Didn't Christ mention something about being turned away for not doing for the least?)

[cathoholic_anonymous]

[quote]Even during my Catholic years, the church held a ecumenical Bible study with mainliners, I watched Christian television and went to Christian bookstores and bought books for Christian ladies that were evangelical in nature. I see this among many many Catholics that are in the pews....[/quote]

I don't see this is as a sign of Protestant influence in the Church. This is standard Catholic practice. It is invaluable to read the scriptures with someone who may hold a different interpretation from yours. In this way, you learn where your common ground lies, develop a stronger understanding of both your own beliefs and those of the other person, and as a result come to know Our Lord much better. Jesus is present in all people - not just in the ones who happen to agree with you theologically. As a Catholic, I look for Him everywhere - and, as He promised, I always find Him.

[quote]There are a few Catholics Ive witnessed to also, who have said to me...Yes Budge, I realize there is much that is man-made and unscriptural in the Catholic church.[/quote]

Again, that does not necessarily make them dissidents. To disagree with a teaching you have to first know exactly what you are disagreeing with. Some Catholics are not at all well educated about their faith, and therein lies the problem.

[quote]Thats good. So am I, I say the same stuff IRL I do here. Course for some reason I seem to pull it off better IRL...body language;)? Maybe love is something easier shown in person...[/quote]

This doesn't surprise me. When I talk to anti-Catholic Protestants online, I can spend fifteen minutes replying to one paragraph - I get my Bible out, reach for the catechism, talk to Catholics who are more knowledgeable than I am. On Friday night, when I was tricked into that debate by my Baptist friend, I didn't have recourse to any of this - especially as she kept changing the topic every few sentences. It's much easier to confuse someone in real life, even if you aren't deliberately aiming to confuse them.

[Katholikos]

[quote name='Budge' post='1107321' date='Nov 1 2006, 09:14 AM']

Witnessing to Catholics IRL is interesting, because many Catholics in the pews differ from Catholics that populate Catholic blogs and religious message boards.[/quote]What's IRL? Some Catholics know their faith better than others. Protestants always look for the weak members of the flock.

[quote]Many actually believe a smattering of Protestant and Catholic doctrine...{Prot influence is strong in America}[/quote]Protestants have retained many doctrines of the Mother Church. But one cannot speak of "Protestant doctrine" because of the conflicting and competing doctrines held by all those thousands and thousands of denominations. Perhaps two are consistently held among all Protestants: Sola Scriptura and Sola Fide.

[quote] and one Catholic I witnessed to for a long time {I no longer live in her town} watched Christian television, and had some Biblical truth mixed with Catholicism, ie she believed in salvation via faith, but believed Marian apparitions were true.[/quote]Well, she was half right.

[quote]Ive had at least 2 Catholics directly say to me they do not believe in transubstantiation.[/quote]Catholics are required to believe the doctrine of the Eucharist, that bread and wine become the Body and Blood, Soul and Divinity of our Lord Jesus Christ at the consecration of the Mass; they're not required to know the philosophical term that describes the change.

[quote]It is far different out in the world to witness to Catholics.[/quote]If all Catholics knew the history of the Church and the Bible, and where we got the Bible, Protestants would have little success at pulling them out of the Church.

Jesus didn't leave us a Bible, He left us a Church. The Bible is a product of the Church, acting as the Agent of the Holy Spirit, not vice versa.

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Blessed Father Damien, pray for us!

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote name='Katholikos' post='1108439' date='Nov 2 2006, 03:21 AM']
What's IRL?
[/quote]
You know, I was wondering that for the longest time, but it just now struck me...I think it's "in real life."

[Budge]

[quote]What's IRL? Some Catholics know their faith better than others. Protestants always look for the weak members of the flock. [/quote]

IRL stands for IN REAL LIFE...{not on the web}

I do not go searching for weak members, I witness to anyone even the gung-hos, otherwise why would I be here?

[quote]Protestants have retained many doctrines of the Mother Church. But one cannot speak of "Protestant doctrine" because of the conflicting and competing doctrines held by all those thousands and thousands of denominations. Perhaps two are consistently held among all Protestants: Sola Scriptura and Sola Fide.[/quote]

One lady I witnessed to the other day, who is attending baptist church with her new baptist boyfriend, {yes he actually is breaking the unequally yoked commandment} told me her own priest, preached that salvation came about via faith, and not through sacraments. I told her that the Catholic CCC, taught that the sacraments were necessary for faith. There is a lot of confusion out there. I believe many RCIA directors and others are trying to make Catholicism sound evangelistic to be more appealing to converts who have had exposure to the gospel elsewhere.

The problem is these folks who have not studied Catholicism deeply and only know the most superficial Biblical knowledge are not trained to the fact that Rome uses the same words oftentimes with different meanings.

[quote]Jesus didn't leave us a Bible, He left us a Church. The Bible is a product of the Church, acting as the Agent of the Holy Spirit, not vice versa. [/quote]

have you ever considered you may be wrong about the Catholic Church being the church that Jesus left.

For me all it took was...

1. Realizing how many things it preached were opposed to scripture.

2. Its involvement with the false antichrist interfaith movement.

3. Rome's new evangelism--ie do not preach the gospel {prolestyzation is bad}

The fruits of Rome, show me that it is not the church that Jesus left, it is the counterfeit along with daughters warned of in Revelation.

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote name='Budge' post='1108554' date='Nov 2 2006, 11:47 AM']
have you ever considered you may be wrong about the Catholic Church being the church that Jesus left.

For me all it took was...

1. Realizing how many things it preached were opposed to scripture.

2. Its involvement with the false antichrist interfaith movement.

3. Rome's new evangelism--ie do not preach the gospel {prolestyzation is bad}

The fruits of Rome, show me that it is not the church that Jesus left, it is the counterfeit along with daughters warned of in Revelation.
[/quote]

1. Zero.

2. None.

3. Absolutely False (read Evangelii Nuntiandi...at the very most, you can attribute a lack of preaching to the lack of people willing to carry it out, but certainly not to Rome's instructions).

[Budge]

1. Ive posted on several times.

2. I have entire message board section dedicated to Rome's false interfaithism.

3. The Vatican has joined with the UN AGAINST proletysation.

In fact here is an example right here of Rome working AGAINST the gospel...you must respect false religions. No I do not. False religions lead people to eternal hellfire. this is totally contrary to Biblical evangelization.



[quote] PEACE REQUIRES RESPECT FOR RELIGIOUS BELIEFS

VATICAN CITY, FEB 20, 2006 (VIS) - This morning in the Vatican, Benedict XVI received the Letters of Credence of Ali Achour, the new ambassador of Morocco to the Holy See. After expressing his thanks for the greetings of the king of Morocco, Mohammed VI, conveyed by the diplomat, the Pope reiterated his esteem "for the tradition of welcome and understanding which has, for many centuries, characterized relations between the Kingdom of Morocco and the Catholic Church."

The Holy Father recalled that Morocco has just celebrated the 50th anniversary of its independence, praising its express intent to move towards "a modern, democratic and prosperous future." The achievements of these years "must enable Moroccans to live in security and dignity, so that they can actively participate in the social and political life of the country."

The Pope then went on to refer to the "ever-closer collaboration between countries bordering on the Mediterranean Sea, ... which is called more than ever before to be a place of encounter and dialogue between peoples and cultures." He also focussed on some of the serious problems faced by these countries, such as "the phenomenon of migration," which "constitutes an important factor in relations between States."

"In ever greater numbers, emigrants from less favored regions call at the gates of Europe in search of better living conditions," said the Pope. Therefore, it is necessary "that institutions in the countries of destination and transit, do not consider these people as a mere commodity or labor force, and that they respect their fundamental rights and their dignity."

"The precarious situation of so many foreigners must favor solidarity between the countries involved, so as to contribute to the development of the emigrants' places of origin. In fact, these problems cannot be solved only by national policies. Only ever-greater collaboration between all the nations concerned will favor the search for solutions to these painful problems."

Benedict XVI then referred to Morocco's contribution to "the consolidation of dialogue between civilizations, cultures and religions," recalling that "in the current international context, the Catholic Church is convinced that, in order to support peace and understanding among peoples, ... there is an urgent need for religions and their symbols to be respected, and for believers not to be exposed to provocations that wound ... their religious feelings."

"Nonetheless," the Holy Father added, "intolerance and violence can never be justified as a response to offence, because they are incompatible with the sacred principles of religion. For this reason, we can only lament the actions of those who deliberately profit from the offence caused to religious sentiments in order to foment violence, because their aims are foreign to religion."

[b] The Pope concluded his address to the diplomat by recalling that for believers and for people of good will, the only road that leads to peace and fraternity is that of "respect for the religious practices and convictions of others," so that "in all societies, everyone may be assured of the opportunity to practice the religion they have freely chosen." [/b] [/quote]

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote name='Budge' post='1108559' date='Nov 2 2006, 11:56 AM']
1. Ive posted on several times.

2. I have entire message board section dedicated to Rome's false interfaithism.

3. The Vatican has joined with the UN AGAINST proletysation.

In fact here is an example right here of Rome working AGAINST the gospel...you must respect false religions. No I do not. False religions lead people to eternal hellfire. this is totally contrary to Biblical evangelization.
[/quote]


1. Posting something doesn't mean it's true. We've refuted every one of your attacks and you have so far refused to defend your positions.

2. Conspiracy theories.

3. The quote you provide merely shows that the Church is against forcing and coercing faith, not that it is against evangelization.