The Fruits Of Sola Scriptura

[Budge]

Question for Catholic men here,

is Mark Shea correct that Catholicism is more of a feminine church?

[url="http://www.mark-shea.com/fem.html"]http://www.mark-shea.com/fem.html[/url]

Many of the evangelical ones have been feminized too...

[quote]Masculine and Feminine, Evangelical and Catholic

In a mathematically perfect world, conversation between Catholics and Evangelicals would be conducted on the level of pure theology and many misunderstandings would instantly be clarified:

Evangelical: [Stirs sugar into teacup] Tell me, Friend Catholic, what your understanding is of the place of Mary in the economy of salvation? It would appear (though I could be wrong) that you worship her in some way. How do you reconcile this with the biblical witness that God alone is to be worshiped? [Offers teacup to Catholic. Begins pouring his own cup and nodding in profound listening attentiveness throughout following speech.]

Catholic: [Takes teacup. Sips thoughtfully.] Actually, Friend Evangelical, Catholics do not worship Mary. They instead accord her the highest honor due a mere creature (hyperdulia) while according God latria, the worship due to God alone. This is not strange, since we all know what it is to honor a creature (such as our mother on Mother's Day) without honoring that creature to the same degree as God. Honor is, after all, a species of love and we know from the lips of Jesus himself that, so far from insulting God, it is an act of love to God to love our neighbor. Therefore, honoring Mary with hyperdulia is, in fact, an act of love which redounds to God's glory.

Evangelical: [Sips tea thoughtfully, nodding.] Ah! I see. Lucidly spoken! I agree completely. Now, with respect to transubstantiation, I have the following inquiry...

Unfortunately, this is not usually the way conversation begins. I know this from experience, since I used to be an Evangelical. Here's what really happens:

You walk into a Catholic Church and over there is a statue of Mary with some sort of gaudy crown on it. Meanwhile, over here there's a bunch of people in the front row, and they're praying the Rosary (ten to one ratio of Mary to Our Father prayers, you notice). You've got pictures, statues, icons and lots of stuff that you look at. Same when you go into a Catholic home and there is art on the walls featuring Our Lady of the Streets or some other Marian image or statue. If the family is devout, they're praying the Rosary again, often without explaining what they are doing. If they are like many Catholics, the faith is a mixture of old catechesis and affectionate folk piety ("Padre Pio used to tell that story about how when Jesus closed the door to heaven, Mama Mary would let sinners in through the back window.") And that's your first impression. That's what you start with as an Evangelical. So an Evangelical, not unreasonably, says, "There just seems to be a lot of emphasis on Mary." But because the emphasis is not contextualized (i.e., nobody is there to tell the Evangelical what exactly is going on and rare is the parish where somebody clearly articulates it) the Evangelical is more or less in the position of an archaeologist trying to reconstruct a forgotten civilization from the statues left behind while not being able to read the language. Not surprisingly, he concludes the statues or the people they represent are being worshiped.

All this is very funny for educated Catholics, who speak the mysterious hieroglyphic language called "Tradition" the Evangelical is struggling to decode. And sometimes, humorous things result from the miscommunication. For instance, I was on an internet list group one time when an angry young Fundamentalist wrote in and said, "Why is it you guys worship statues!?" A very droll deacon wrote back to him and said, "Oh, we don't worship statues anymore, now we worship banners."

However, as tempting as it is to reply like this, it is also vital to note that, for the Evangelical, it's a live question precisely because what you are often dealing with is not a theological treatise but a set of first impressions tangled, not merely with theological but with cultural differences.

Let me give you an example of what I'm talking about. Imagine yourself opening up some Catholic magazine or turning on some Catholic program and seeing an ad with language like this (spoken with a distinct Southern accent):

"Support John Paul II Ministries! Marching out in the power in the Spirit to claim victory over the powers of Hell! Anointed! Dynamic! Making an impact on this generation for Jesus Christ!!"

Doesn't sound very Catholic does it? But stop. Is there, in fact, anything in the description of our mission as Catholics that's fundamentally at odds with that kind of language? No. Not a thing. We are, in fact, called to claim victory over hell by the power of the Spirit. We have been anointed in baptism and confirmation. We are called to dynamically bear witness to Christ and to "renew the face of the earth" through the Holy Spirit.

Yet you still associate such language with the 700 Club, don't you?

Now let's try another thought experiment. You flip on your TV to the 700 Club or TBN and you see an ad there as a woman with an English accent intones, "Read The Inner Way of Silence, and allow God to invite you to enter more deeply the path of contemplation. Experience sanctity as a fruit of dialogue with the Holy Spirit. Practice the presence of God and open yourself to the gentle prompting of the Spirit by saying, as Mary did, 'I am the handmaid of the Lord, be it done unto me according to thy will.' Allow the Spirit to breathe into your quiet reflection on the work of God in Scripture and Creation. Let God breathe forth in you, as in Mary's womb, the Christ who comes to us in prayer and mystery."

Again, is there anything in this that's not biblical? Not a thing. And yet you'd never hear such an ad on the 700 Club or some other Evangelical show. Why not?
[b]
Because the language is feminine and Evangelical culture tends to be overwhelmingly masculine. Conversely, Catholic culture tends to be overwhelmingly feminine. And the two cultures often mistake their cultural differences for theological ones. The Catholic approach to God tends to be feminine, body centered, Eucharistic, and contemplative. Prayer, in such a culture, is primarily for seeking union with God. Evangelical approaches to God tend to be masculine, centered on Scripture, centered on mission, and on the Spirit working in power. Prayer, in such a culture, is primarily for getting things done. Neither of these ways of approach are wrong. Both of these are legitimate Christian ways of approaching the Gospel. Indeed, both of them are, or should be, part of the Catholic way of approaching the Gospel. [/b]
But, largely because we don't recognize that they are cultural differences, these ways of approach often constitute a collision point between Evangelicals and Catholics. Take, for instance, the different approaches to prayer. The Feminine Spirituality of the Catholic tends to see the Evangelical approach to prayer as rather shallow and utilitarian. Prayer to get things done looks like prayer which uses God as a means to an end. Meanwhile, Catholic piety tends to be seen by Evangelicals as a cold inwardness cut off from "real life." Thus, Evangelicals frequently criticize the Catholic monastery for its "retreat from reality behind the walls of the cloister", praying piously while the world is going to hell in a handbasket. The Catholic who is tempted to pass judgement needs to be reminded that prayer for daily bread is encouraged by our Lord. The Evangelical who is tempted to pass judgment needs to be reminded that Jesus went into the desert to pray and seek union with the Father. Both are legitimate forms of prayer.

Such collision points represent an opportunity and a challenge. The Catholic response to this challenge is straightforward, we must be the first to do what Catholic faith does so well: embrace the Catholic Both/And so that Evangelical masculine piety is again embraced and honored in a healthy way. And I am convinced this is happening. That's why so many cradle Catholics are responding to the wave of Evangelical converts who have poured into the Church in the past 15 years. The Catholic faith is ripe for a renewal of, so to speak, masculine piety. But, by the same token (and I speak here as a "completed Evangelical" myself), Evangelicals both inside and outside the Catholic communion must also face facts: the feminine way has been too long denied and denigrated by us. We must find a way to integrate it back into our spiritual lives if we are to fully grasp the gift Christ has won for us. It was on many levels that Jesus spoke when, as his dying act, he gave us a Mother. We have feared the Blessed Virgin, Holy Mother Church, all that is feminine, for far too long.

In sum, Jesus made us, his "beloved disciples" the children of a Heavenly Father, but also of his Mother. We have lived with the division long enough. It is time once again for all Christians to honor our Father and our Mother.[/quote]

[Winchester]

[quote name='Eutychus' post='1107369' date='Nov 1 2006, 09:41 AM']
He is DEAD ON.

I've been harping on all these issues now for months, mostly to blank stares.....

And the most feminized of all the major churches is guess who?

Men who { on paper } don't care about sex, running things.

Huge emphasis on the mommy of God.

The dress up days designed to make normal men run fast. { real men don't wear lace }

[/quote]

Yes, Roman Rite priests cannot marry. I guess it's feminine to not care about sex (Fallacy the First)

I won't touch the "mommy of God" thing. Yes I will. Stay inside during thunderstorms. Why the hatred of Mary, to be so condedscending toward her. Perhaps you have lost sight of due respect in faovr of offending Catholics. It will work; I'm sure some people are positively seething at your asinine statement. Congratulations, you irrritated some people.

Actually, depending upon the culture, I would reckon men do wear lace. I guess you're putting forth the position that lace is inherently feminine. Go down to the city, Oh Plato, and free the people from their nighted ways.

[homeschoolmom]

Seems Paul didnt care about sex either.

[img]http://instruct1.cit.cornell.edu/courses/nes275/studentproj/fall05/coj3/priest.jpg[/img]
Yeah, and everyone knows bells and pommegranets are what all the studs wear....

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote name='Budge' post='1107376' date='Nov 1 2006, 12:48 PM']
Question for Catholic men here,

is Mark Shea correct that Catholicism is more of a feminine church?

[url="http://www.mark-shea.com/fem.html"]http://www.mark-shea.com/fem.html[/url]

Many of the evangelical ones have been feminized too...
[/quote]
Budge, I applaud your approach in the above post. Thank you for asking us for our thoughts instead of telling us what they are.

The Catholic Church is feminine in a mystical way because it is the Bride of Christ, that is, as one sees in looking at the prophecies about God coming like a Bridegroom for His Bride, they are, in a sense, married. This is what allows them to be one body and it is why we, the Church, say that we are the body of Christ ("the two shall become one flesh").

However, Catholic spirituality on a more individual basis can be very feminine or very masculine. On one hand, the contemplatives tend to practice a more feminine spirituality, one where the Catholic lies open, docile, waiting for the Bridegroom to come and enlighten, lift up, and bring into union. On the other hand, active members of the Church tend to be more masculine (perhaps this is why so many online, who certainly tend to be more masculine, are more abrasive when it comes to the faith, although we should be gentle but firm). Such active members are those who go out into the streets and live out the Catholic faith from day to day. They are the defenders and providers for the Church.

The split comes from a key distinction, I think. The Church as a whole is feminine and when one is entering into the mystery of the Church toward Christ, one is practicing a more feminine role (thus, when we are worshipping, we are to be open and docile, asking God's word to penetrate us, etc.). When one is entering into the mystery of the Church toward the world, that is, the mission to build up the Church and to evangelize the world, one takes on a more active, masculine role (thus we become defenders and providers for the Church in this role). Both are perfectly valid roles within the Church and different people practice each to different extents, but I think all Catholics are called to practice both...however, our primary role is toward Christ, and so the Church as a whole is feminine because the Church, when looking to Christ, represents humanity (feminine, since God is the masculine to humanity) and, when looking toward humanity, represents Christ (masculine, since humanity is feminine to Christ).

Anyway, that's just a matter of my observation. It doesn't mean that Catholic men are called to act like women or vice-versa; it just means that there are different roles which are typically classified as such and we use those classifications.

[Kosh]

Don't diss Mary. Or priests, for that matter.

And while I might agree that some Catholic churches (or lots, I don't really know) have been "feminized", the Catholic Church as a whole has not. And I think its amusing how people keep flip-flopping on whether or not we're pro women or anti-women. Da Vinci Code seemed to think we oppress women. You guys seem to think that we're too feminized. Make up yer mind already.

[Mary-Kathryn]

[quote name='Eutychus' post='1107369' date='Nov 1 2006, 10:41 AM']
He is DEAD ON.

I've been harping on all these issues now for months, mostly to blank stares.....

[color="#FF0000"] You know very well your statements, like the ones below, are said only to get emotional reactions and not much else.[/color]

And the most feminized of all the major churches is guess who?

[color="#FF0000"]Jesus didn't seem feminine to me when He was hanging on His Cross or when He was walking this earth. I don't think I'd want to question His Humanity or His Divinity. I believe. How about you?[/color]

Men who { on paper } don't care about sex, running things.

[color="#FF0000"]Priests do care about "sex", as you carelessly put it. They have simply been called to a different vocation than married men and are celibate. I have not had a chance to read it, but I have heard that John Paul The Great's Theology of The Body is an absolute masterpiece. You might want to pick it up. Of course they also have to care about "running things" whether it be from the parish level all the way to the Vatican level. They care most of all about the souls of those entrusted to them. [/color]

Huge emphasis on the mommy of God.

[color="#FF0000"]Mary is The Mother of God...nothing more...but nothing LESS[/color].

The dress up days designed to make normal men run fast. { real men don't wear lace }

[color="#FF0000"]There are different forms of dress all over the world. Simply because you are not a part of that particular belief or culture does not mean it is unmanly. Kilts are worn in Scotland and in Ireland I think for certain ceremonies, other countries have their native dress also. [/color]
[color="#FF0000"]So it is with The Church. Hopefully someone here can give you legitimate links that can provide you a good historical [not hysterical] overview.[/color]

Add 'em all up.

[color="#FF0000"]It equals a below-the-belt argument with not one bit of rational discussion. You look for a fight. You accuse our Church of being feminine, our priests of being the same and of not caring about sex [ "on paper" insinuating otherwise]. You further insult The Mother of God for good measure--which you need to think of how you would feel if someone insulted YOUR mother, then think what you just did to God's mother...then tried to get us going by the classic "all I get is blank stares" One of the many many, many, reasons why I couldn't stomach the god you worship [/color]
[/quote]



note: my answers in red

Edited November 1, 2006 by Mary-Kathryn

[Winchester]

I seem to recall something about the church (Catholic or not) being the Bride of Christ. Wouldn't that be feminine?

[Mary-Kathryn]

[quote name='Winchester' post='1107832' date='Nov 1 2006, 05:30 PM']
I seem to recall something about the church (Catholic or not) being the Bride of Christ. Wouldn't that be feminine?
[/quote]

Yes of course. But not in the sense he seems to be implying. It seems he is implying that The Church is somehow "weak" or "girly". Goes along with the "real men don't wear lace" thing

[Socrates]

[quote name='Eutychus' post='1107369' date='Nov 1 2006, 10:41 AM']
Huge emphasis on the mommy of God.
[/quote]
So real men don't respect Mother?

Should take that up with [url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7_rBidCkJxo"]Mr. T![/url]

[cathoholic_anonymous]

Since when did feminine become another word for 'sissy'? And since when did decorating the church with flowers become a sissy thing to do? Our Lord created the flowers, and not even the greatest masterpiece of human artwork can ever match up to the beauty of His creation. So as well as using our God-given artistic talents to decorate churches, isn't it natural to make places of worship beautiful with flowers? As humans, we're not going to create anything better in a hurry.

Furthermore, lots of men enjoy gardening. My grandfather used to spend hours planning out his garden, tending to it, and just sitting in it to admire its loveliness. He was in the Royal Navy during the Second World War and he did back-breaking work on a farm after his discharge. He was no sissy. It is just a stereotype that flowers are a 'girly' thing - a stereotype invented and propogated by men, I might add, as they seem to have had the privilege of deciding what is appropriately feminine or not over the years. Flowers were made by God. And He is not a pansy. :

[Balthazor]

This sect is a little off base I think.

It used to be that men did go to church a lot more.
In fact the Salt mines in Wieliczka have chapels where the miners, which I assure you were all male, said their prayers. They made these Chapels, these miners, heavy blue collar workers in a hole in the ground.....and you see thsee beautiful chapels. Made by the callosed hands of salt miners. Amazing. How is that femine?
And it used to be in major cities there would be REALLY early masses on Sunday, so that the printers that ran the presses for the newspaper could go to mass...once again an all male demographic until VERY recently.
Chanting.... used to be restricted to men.
The Priesthood ...restricted to men.

I just do not see how anyone can look at the Catholic Church and get a pink fluffy femanine world.
The Church of knights and crusaders?
The church unpon which the modern day university system was founded....which also used to be restricted to males....
the Church which within it has stone Cathedrals with gargoyles clinging to it's eves????
Huh?
Being a real man does not mean you have to be a baudy, testosterone junkie. Look at Vince Lombardi, for example, few would call him femanine or weak. And yet he always had a Rosary in his pocket, he was a devoted Catholic.

These guys are not looking very carefully I think. Or perhaps they are interpreting things in their own way.

To be a masculine does not just mean to be not femanine, but rather to compliment the femanine. This testosterone church lacks balance, it is also , in my opinion borderline selfish, because it eliminates the element of having family come together to Church. Which is askinig for trouble down the road. In todays world most people see their family very little because they work so much. What this church does is give guys a free pass to go alone and hang out with other guys excluding thier family.....this could be asking for trouble.

[Mary-Kathryn]

[quote name='Cathoholic Anonymous' post='1108527' date='Nov 2 2006, 07:40 AM']
And feminine or not over the years. Flowers were made by God. And He is not a pansy. :
[/quote]

[desertwoman]

Yes. Why is feminity being demonized. The same for masculinity. It's quite crazy in my opinion.

[Budge]

Are men supposed to be the leaders of a church or not?

Feminized churches always go the way of feminism, the most extreme ones, entering into worship of the "goddess" {I believe the elevations of Mary in Rome definitely are related to its feminization} Churches run by women and homosexuals always give up Biblical truth, for their own. The UU which is probably an extreme feminine church ran by homosexuals openly with its worship of the goddess held these things in common.

Doesnt the Bible consider effiminancy alone to be a sin?

1Cr 6:9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, [b]nor effeminate[/b], nor abusers of themselves with mankind,

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote name='Budge' post='1108564' date='Nov 2 2006, 12:00 PM']
Are men supposed to be the leaders of a church or not?

Feminized churches always go the way of feminism, the most extreme ones, entering into worship of the "goddess" {I believe the elevations of Mary in Rome definitely are related to its feminization} Churches run by women and homosexuals always give up Biblical truth, for their own. The UU which is probably an extreme feminine church ran by homosexuals openly with its worship of the goddess held these things in common.

Doesnt the Bible consider effiminancy alone to be a sin?

1Cr 6:9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, [b]nor effeminate[/b], nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
[/quote]
The Church has elevated Mary no higher than God did in the Assumption: she is a venerated creature, perfected by God's grace, and held out as an example of authentic humanity.