B&e, What Am I Lacking To Become Christian?

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote name='Budge' post='1104937' date='Oct 30 2006, 01:11 PM']
[b]Act 16:30 And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?
Act 16:31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house. [/b]

This means total trust in Jesus Christ, not dependence on sacraments, religious system or church.

Salvation is a free gift.

This means belief in the Christ of the Bible, not false christs which include the Catholic Eucharist, and "Vicars" of christ.
[/quote]
Salvation is a free gift. You're completely right. That's why God gives it to us by means of the sacraments and the Church. However, since this isn't my thread, I'll let you get on with JSWRanch.

[quote name='Eutychus' post='1104939' date='Oct 30 2006, 01:14 PM']
Note the inserted weasle word..."MERELY."

I simply cannot believe that you folks are trying to make the case that the Catholic Church believes in FREE UNMERITED grace based salvation.

The ruling from TRENT, confirmed at VATICAN II, is very clear, and to further buttress up EXACTLY that it is still operative today, all one needs to do is open the CCC and quote it:
Note the WEASLE WORDS here, trying to have things both way.

Grace is FREE, but thereafter in order to KEEP IT, you must get on the Roman Catholic treadmill of Masses, Sacraments, Indulgences, and Purgatory.

HOWEVER, if you are uber good, you can gather up MORE EARNED { Works Based } grace than you need to balance the "feathr on the scale" and pass it along as a "Catholic Lend Lease Program" to others.

Clever these guys, but I'm onto how the game is played now.

DENY the facts to non-Catholics, and hide behind featherly language, and when non-Catholics are not around, revert back to Catholicese and tell 'em the unvarnished truth.
[/quote]

There's nothing weasely about it. The Catholic view is quite clear and can be seen as necessarily following from the principles Christ gave us, using right reason to draw out further principles. See this thread: [url="http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?showtopic=58464"]http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?showtopic=58464[/url]

[jswranch]

[quote name='Budge' post='1104933' date='Oct 30 2006, 09:05 AM']
No as hard as that is for you to hear, and here is why...
[b]2Cr 11:4 For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or [if] ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with [him].[/b] [/quote]

And how am I believing in another Jesus? I believe in the same Jesus professed in the bible. I believe in the same Jesus professed by the early chruch between 100-200 AD through today.

What beliefs of what did Jesus, besides the sacrifice of Him alone to save me, do I have to hold before I can call myself a Christian in your eyes?

[quote name='Budge' post='1104937' date='Oct 30 2006, 09:11 AM']
[b]Act 16:30 And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?
Act 16:31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house. [/b] [/quote]
Ok, I believe this 100% and would not deny it under torture.

[quote name='Budge' post='1104937' date='Oct 30 2006, 09:11 AM']
This means total trust in Jesus Christ, not dependence on sacraments, religious system or church.[/quote]

Ok, I trust in Jesus Christ to save me alone. He, not some Pope, Mary or sacrament, hung on the cross so that I could be counted in the flock of God the Father. I am dependant on the grace of God alone for all that is good and all that he wants for my life.


[quote]Salvation is a free gift.[/quote]

Amen. I agree 100%. See #7 of my profession of beliefs.

[cmotherofpirl]

So Budge are you going to answer the question????

Its really not that difficult, like the pinned one which you have ignored for several weeks.

[jswranch]

All others,
I would like to keep this tread on topic. We can discuss the implications of Trent, VII, and CCC later.

I just want to know what else I have to do before I can be called a Christian by B, E and all other takers.

[cmotherofpirl]

ok, nobody respond from now on except Budge, all else wil be deleted

[Budge]

[quote]
[u]Ok, I trust in Jesus Christ to save me alone[/u]. He, not some Pope, Mary or sacrament, hung on the cross so that I could be counted in the flock of God the Father. I am dependant on the grace of God alone for all that is good and all that he wants for my life.[/quote]

Jwsranch,

Maybe you really are a Christian but if you truly believe the above, and believe in the Jesus of the Bible and am not just trying to twist evangelical lingo to confuse things, then you really are no longer a Catholic.

Trent and the teachings of the Catholic church say differently then what you have written above.

Trent does matter, even if you say it doesnt because Trent is the OFFICIAL teachings of the church and your statements of belief DIFFER.

Thats fine with me, maybe one day it would bring you out.

Since you are a new convert, I KNOW for a fact they are using evangelical lingo and telling new converts--one I personally know in my family, they dont have to believe official Catholic teachings to be a Catholic. This person was told they could reject Purgatory and the Immaculate Conception and convert to Catholicism with no problems. They did it to marry mostly.

[jswranch]

[quote name='Budge' post='1104980' date='Oct 30 2006, 09:45 AM']
Jwsranch,

Maybe you really are a Christian but if you truly believe the above, and believe in the Jesus of the Bible and am not just trying to twist evangelical lingo to confuse things, then you really are no longer a Catholic.

Trent and the teachings of the Catholic church say differently then what you have written above....
[/quote]

First, I want you to determine for yourself publically whether or not I am a Christian. All you have to do is say something like, "John, if you honestly and truly believe the 8 points you listed above and in this thread, then you are a Christian."


After you do this, then we can discuss whether or not my beliefs are contary to Trent, CCC, VII etc.

[cmotherofpirl]

Ok this has been changed to non-catholics only since Budge refuses to answer.
EVERYBODY else will be deleted

[homeschoolmom]

You mean "their posts will be deleted" right? Right??



Right??????

[mulls]

[quote name='jswranch' post='1104992' date='Oct 30 2006, 11:56 AM']
First, I want you to determine for yourself publically whether or not I am a Christian. All you have to do is say something like, "John, if you honestly and truly believe the 8 points you listed above and in this thread, then you are a Christian."
After you do this, then we can discuss whether or not my beliefs are contary to Trent, CCC, VII etc.
[/quote]

Umm


here we go again. the age old "what constitues being a Christian" thing. i can't remember how many of these dances i participated in (or willfully ignored) while i was spending alot of time here.

but it looks like Budge is being set-up for a lose-lose situation here....if she says "No, you are not a Christian," won't that just lend credence for more nonsense like the "Budge can read people's heart" thread?

and if she says "Yes, you are a Christian".....well, I doubt she would even say that, because, from what I know of her, she would be weary in giving someone a false sense of security (not to imply that jsw actually even cares what she says, or maybe he does?), and also, the most you can know on a forum like this is whether or not someone intellectually assents to some doctrinal bullet points. i think most would agree that intellectuall assent, agreement, with some ideas does isn't what makes a Christian a Christian. but Budge and jsw might agree on those 8 points, but still disagree about each other's standing before the Lord. and since it seems all of her credibility is based on answering this question then SSSPHHHHHHHHHHSjg4o438tu-gjklmvj4ou2-89mv-vmh-8-b38v6mv u498y9-ut7ksdjlg;85tuaaaaaaaaaaaaaahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!!!!!!!!!!!!




ohhh right, so this is why i stopped posting on message boards....

Edited October 30, 2006 by Raphael

[jswranch]

Mulls,

I have not even once read the "Budge can read people's heart" thread.


[quote]but Budge and jsw might agree on those 8 points, but still disagree about each other's standing before the Lord.[/quote]

The discussion is on whether I am a Christian. It is not a debate on what constitues a Christian. I believe Budge is a Christian.

What do you say? If I truthfully and honestly profess the above 8 statements, am I a Christian or must I do something else?

Edited October 30, 2006 by jswranch

[mulls]

[quote]I have not even once read the "Budge can read people's heart" thread.[/quote]

fair enough, it just seems like her credibility to the point where people can say stuff like that and nobody has a problem with it. but if you can remain a stalwart of objectivity no matter how she responds, more power to you.


[quote]The discussion is on whether I am a Christian. It is not a debate on what constitues a Christian. [b]I believe Budge is a Christian.[/b][/quote]

that's great, but it does matter what constitutes a Christian, because if that's not defined (which i'm saying is really hard to do in a setting like this), it can just turn into an empty, check-box, what-i-was-born-into-and-believe-in-my-head label. you thinking someone is a Christian... i would like to take that to mean that their sins are forgiven, they have full access to and communion with God because of Christ alone, and will go to heaven upon their death. that's how i read that, even though there's obviously more to it than that. and that's why defining our terms matters. if you agree, then awesome.


[quote]What do you say? If I truthfully and honestly profess the above 8 statements, am I a Christian?[/quote]

ok, i'll bite anyways...


[quote]1. I accept Jesus as my lord and saviour

2. I am redeemed by His blood alone

3. I have faith in Jesus

4. I try and read the bible and study the Word atleast an hour a day

5. I have been born again.

6. I am sure (assured) of this salvation.

7. I am not in a state of salvation because of what I have done, but by the free gift of grace alone.

8. I spend time in prayer everyday where I find the HS speaks to me on matters of faith and the actions God wishes for me.[/quote]

if this is all i have to go by, never having known you in real life, not knowing your testimony, unable to have fellowship with you....if you put a gun to my head, then yes, absolutely, i'd call you a christian.

Edited October 30, 2006 by mulls

[jswranch]

[quote name='mulls' post='1105155' date='Oct 30 2006, 01:04 PM']
if this is all i have to go by, never having known you in real life, not knowing your testimony, unable to have fellowship with you....if you put a gun to my head, then yes, absolutely, i'd call you a christian.
[/quote]

Thanks!

BTW, how would knowing:

a. testimony
b. know in real life
c. able to have fellowship with me

help you be certain without the threat of violence?

Edited October 30, 2006 by jswranch

[mulls]

[quote]Thanks![/quote]


hmm, that's a curious response. did you receive that as a compliment?


[quote]BTW, how would knowing:

a. testimony
b. know in real life
c. able to have fellowship with me

help you be certain without the threat of violence?[/quote]


because you gotta walk the walk in my book. God's too. i can't measure your faith or what exactly you really truly believe in deep down in your soul, but i can see how you live.

[jswranch]

[quote name='mulls' post='1105166' date='Oct 30 2006, 01:12 PM']
hmm, that's a curious response. did you receive that as a compliment?
[/quote]
Yes, especially how some folks deny this.