Guest T-Bone Posted October 31, 2006 Share Posted October 31, 2006 Why should it be as simple and easy and smooth as possible? You're condemning our change on this basis. Defend yours or retract. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KizlarAgha Posted October 31, 2006 Share Posted October 31, 2006 (edited) [quote name='kujo' post='1106585' date='Oct 31 2006, 05:39 PM'] Movies, books, magazines, newspapers, bloggers...they're all good sources of information. You shouldn't "base your judgements of reality" on them, but there's no harm in allowing some information into your thick skull every so often. I don't even think this needs to be responded to. If you are that dissatisfied with our government, either do something about it, or shut your mouth. Not to sound harsh, but it's this sort of attitude that drives me insane. It is so purile and childish. Rather than working to get something accomplish, you jump up and down and scream "ITS NOT FAIR!" If you are that dissatisfied with our government, you can do one of two things: vote your beliefs, or shut your mouth. [/quote] Okay, first of all - Oliver Stone's JFK was filled with conspiracy theory nonsense. I let information into my head, but it has to pass some reasonable standards - clearly yours is an open sewer. Secondly, it's spelled puerile, form the latin Puer, meaning boy or child. If you're going to call someone childish, at least spell it correctly. I'm not dissatisfied with the government. I just think the government is irrelevant. I think the founding fathers did a very good job of creating a government in which it is difficult to make broad, sweeping changes. This isn't necessarily a bad thing. It can be good that it's hard to introduce laws which make the president into a dictator, or remove his powers altogether. It can be good that one party doesn't rule over the entire country enforcing all of its laws without being challenged. I wasn't judging the quality of the US government; I was merely pointing out that it doesn't get anything done. Edited October 31, 2006 by KizlarAgha Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest T-Bone Posted October 31, 2006 Share Posted October 31, 2006 [quote] Protecting it from what?! Do you think a hundred thousand north korean spies are going to move to a swing state, establish residency, fill out voter registration cards, and then vote, swinging the election? And assuming that's the case, do you think that no-one will notice 100,000 North Koreans suddenly appearing in the state where the elections are held? It's absolutely preposterous. Let's drop the pretense here and talk about what we're all really talking about: [b]You don't want Mexicans who came across the border voting because they might vote Democrat. That's really what this is all about.[/b] [/quote] First if all, you do not know my heart, and you do not know how I vote in elections. FACT: I vote for the best person on the ballot, regardless of political affiliation. FACT: I have voted for more Democrates than Republicans in my career as a voter. And to your other comments: One illegal vote is detrimental to the process. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kujo Posted October 31, 2006 Author Share Posted October 31, 2006 (edited) [quote name='KizlarAgha' date='Oct 31 2006, 05:39 PM' post='1106578'] I didn't say they should or shouldn't be deported, I just said they're afraid of it. And, I'm saying that some people, given the choice of buying an ID and eating, will choose to eat. And these same people might have voted were it not for the choice they had to make.[/quote] So, if this issue was raised at a time when there were no poor people, it would be permissible? [quote name='KizlarAgha' date='Oct 31 2006, 05:39 PM' post='1106578'] And the Iraq point is really something of a straw man. We don't live in Iraq. Why should we try to make voting in our country as perilous as voting in Iraq? That's senseless. We should make it as simple and easy and smooth as possible. And we shouldn't add stupid new laws that fix problems which don't exist.[/quote] I hardly think that obtaining a piece of paper that certifies that you are a United States citizen qualifies as a perilous task. [quote name='KizlarAgha' date='Oct 31 2006, 05:39 PM' post='1106578'] Protecting it from what?! Do you think a hundred thousand north korean spies are going to move to a swing state, establish residency, fill out voter registration cards, and then vote, swinging the election? [quote] [quote name='KizlarAgha' date='Oct 31 2006, 05:39 PM' post='1106578'] Let's drop the pretense here and talk about what we're all really talking about: You don't want Mexicans who came across the border voting because they might vote Democrat. That's really what this is all about. [/quote] Ah yes, the inevitable race card rears its ugly head. Mexicans, Chinese, English, Italians, Africans, Irish, Portugeuse, North Koreans, Australians...none of them should be allowed to vote in our country if they are not United States citizens. Period. It matters not what political party they belond to; if you're not a citizen, you don't get those rights. [quote name='KizlarAgha' date='Oct 31 2006, 05:39 PM' post='1106578'] Secondly, it's spelled puerile, form the latin Puer, meaning boy or child. If you're going to call someone childish, at least spell it correctly.[/quote] Pardon my misspelling. Not feeling so well today. Edited October 31, 2006 by kujo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KizlarAgha Posted October 31, 2006 Share Posted October 31, 2006 It's not a race card. You are worried about illegal immigrants voting illegally. The vast majority of illegal immigrants in this country are mexicans. That's just a fact. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest T-Bone Posted October 31, 2006 Share Posted October 31, 2006 Why did you bring up the race of the majority of illegal immigrants? To play the race card. Tactics like that don't work well. Admit that you have no logical argument against voter identification, or supply one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KizlarAgha Posted October 31, 2006 Share Posted October 31, 2006 [quote name='T-Bone' post='1106639' date='Oct 31 2006, 06:03 PM'] Why did you bring up the race of the majority of illegal immigrants? To play the race card. Tactics like that don't work well. Admit that you have no logical argument against voter identification, or supply one. [/quote] I've given one - poverty. I'll give another - inconvenience. I'll give another - superfluousness. The burden isn't on me. It's on you. Why should I vote for a bill like this? (not that they ever put things to a direct vote in this country). Why? It's a new bill, so why should it be passed? Why do we need it? What benefits does it offer? Protection against a threat that doesn't exist? I'm sorry but that's not good enough for me and the bill doesn't have my support. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest T-Bone Posted October 31, 2006 Share Posted October 31, 2006 Oh, and you have yet to apologize for accusing me of: [quote]You don't want Mexicans who came across the border voting because they might vote Democrat. That's really what this is all about.[/quote] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KizlarAgha Posted October 31, 2006 Share Posted October 31, 2006 [quote name='T-Bone' post='1106651' date='Oct 31 2006, 06:05 PM'] Oh, and you have yet to apologize for accusing me of: [/quote] You have yet to apologize for this: Your side is the one constantly whining about "disenfranchisement." Any illegal vote disenfranchises all other voters. Which side am I on? Could it be that you think I'm a democrat? Because you said: Ah...yes...the "Rebulicans rigged the election to get Bush in" argument. Funny, how in Florida, they wanted to count non votes as votes. Funny how all those non-votes were for the Democratic canditate. Thank you for helping prove my side point that the Democrates don't want a fair election process. So, really, I don't intend to apologize. Your statements made it abundantly clear which "side" you are on. And, it's a side that doesn't want to elect democrats, and a side that is concerned about illegal votes from people who would vote democrat. It's nothing more than a logical conclusion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest T-Bone Posted October 31, 2006 Share Posted October 31, 2006 [quote name='KizlarAgha' post='1106650' date='Oct 31 2006, 03:05 PM'] I've given one - poverty. I'll give another - inconvenience. I'll give another - superfluousness. [/quote] 1. What does poverty have to do with this? 2. There is no guarantee of "convinient" elections in the Constitution. 3. Huh? You gave reasons. Not good ones, not logical ones. I'll give you a second chance if you can use logic to prove to me how your reasons are relevant to the debate. [quote] The burden isn't on me. It's on you. [/quote] We have defended this bill. You have yet to show how it will do harm. [quote] Why should I vote for a bill like this? (not that they ever put things to a direct vote in this country). [/quote] Have you actually ever read the Constitution? Do you know how our electoral process operates? Here's a hint: WE ARE A REPRESENTATIVE REPUBLIC!!! WE DO NOT VOTE ON NATIONAL LAWS!!! [quote] Why? It's a new bill, so why should it be passed? Why do we need it? What benefits does it offer? Protection against a threat that doesn't exist? [/quote] It will help protect against the very real threat of election fraud. [quote] I'm sorry but that's not good enough for me and the bill doesn't have my support. [/quote] No need to apologize for not supporting it. Just for your feeble attempt to change my mind. [quote name='KizlarAgha' post='1106662' date='Oct 31 2006, 03:11 PM'] You have yet to apologize for this: Your side is the one constantly whining about "disenfranchisement." Any illegal vote disenfranchises all other voters. Which side am I on? Could it be that you think I'm a democrat? Because you said: Ah...yes...the "Rebulicans rigged the election to get Bush in" argument. Funny, how in Florida, they wanted to count non votes as votes. Funny how all those non-votes were for the Democratic canditate. Thank you for helping prove my side point that the Democrates don't want a fair election process. So, really, I don't intend to apologize. Your statements made it abundantly clear which "side" you are on. And, it's a side that doesn't want to elect democrats, and a side that is concerned about illegal votes from people who would vote democrat. It's nothing more than a logical conclusion. [/quote] I spoke the facts about the Florida election. Do you not like facts? Although I have conservative views, I am in no way a Republican. As I said before, I have voted for more Democrats than Republicans. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KizlarAgha Posted October 31, 2006 Share Posted October 31, 2006 [quote name='T-Bone' post='1106667' date='Oct 31 2006, 06:13 PM'] 1. What does poverty have to do with this? 2. There is no guarantee of "convinient" elections in the Constitution. 3. Huh? You gave reasons. Not good ones, not logical ones. I'll give you a second chance if you can use logic to prove to me how your reasons are relevant to the debate. We have defended this bill. You have yet to show how it will do harm. Have you actually ever read the Constitution? Do you know how our electoral process operates? Here's a hint: WE ARE A REPRESENTATIVE REPUBLIC!!! WE DO NOT VOTE ON NATIONAL LAWS!!! It will help protect against the very real threat of election fraud. No need to apologize for not supporting it. Just for your feeble attempt to change my mind. [/quote] Ridiculous. Some people can't afford an ID. They will be prevented from voting. So there better be a damned good reason for preventing law-abiding citizens from voting. Guess what, there isn't! I'm aware that this is a Republic and not a Democracy, but there are such things as national referendums. [quote name='T-Bone' post='1106667' date='Oct 31 2006, 06:16 PM'] I spoke the facts about the Florida election. Do you not like facts? Although I have conservative views, I am in no way a Republican. As I said before, I have voted for more Democrats than Republicans. [/quote] I'm fine with facts. And if you're not a republican, that's fine, I never said you were. But you're the one talking about democrats as though they're this category to which you do not belong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest T-Bone Posted October 31, 2006 Share Posted October 31, 2006 [quote name='KizlarAgha' post='1106672' date='Oct 31 2006, 03:18 PM'] Ridiculous. Some people can't afford an ID. They will be prevented from voting. So there better be a damned good reason for preventing law-abiding citizens from voting. Guess what, there isn't! [/quote] Guess what? It doesn't prevent law-abiding citizens from voting! Have you actually read the text of the bill in question? [quote] I'm aware that this is a Republic and not a Democracy, but there are such things as national referendums. I'm fine with facts. And if you're not a republican, that's fine, I never said you were. But you're the one talking about democrats as though they're this category to which you do not belong. [/quote] There is no such thing as a national referendum. (At least not in the United States.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kujo Posted October 31, 2006 Author Share Posted October 31, 2006 [quote name='KizlarAgha' post='1106672' date='Oct 31 2006, 06:18 PM'] I'm aware that this is a Republic and not a Democracy, but there are such things as national referendums. I'm fine with facts. And if you're not a republican, that's fine, I never said you were. But you're the one talking about democrats as though they're this category to which you do not belong. [/quote] We are a Democratic Republic..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KizlarAgha Posted October 31, 2006 Share Posted October 31, 2006 [quote name='T-Bone' post='1106675' date='Oct 31 2006, 06:20 PM'] Guess what? It doesn't prevent law-abiding citizens from voting! Have you actually read the text of the bill in question? There is no such thing as a national referendum. (At least not in the United States.) [/quote] Yes it does - it requires proof of citizenship. Passports, birth certificates, etc all cost money. That means that those without the money can't vote. That prevents law-abiding citizens from voting. Fairly easy to work out. And you're right, the US is one of only five "democracies" (really republics) on the planet that hasn't had a National Referendum. I think it's about time. [quote name='kujo' post='1106683' date='Oct 31 2006, 06:24 PM'] We are a Democratic Republic..... [/quote] We're a republic. We elect officials who represent us and then vote on the issues. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest T-Bone Posted October 31, 2006 Share Posted October 31, 2006 [quote name='KizlarAgha' post='1106685' date='Oct 31 2006, 03:25 PM'] Yes it does - it requires proof of citizenship. Passports, birth certificates, etc all cost money. That means that those without the money can't vote. That prevents law-abiding citizens from voting. Fairly easy to work out. [/quote] What about provisions to supply dead-beats with IDs for free? Would that make you happy? [quote] And you're right, the US is one of only five "democracies" (really republics) on the planet that hasn't had a National Referendum. I think it's about time. [/quote] Why? Referendums clog up the elections process, and eliminate the whole basis of the Republic. [quote] We're a republic. We elect officials who represent us and then vote on the issues. [/quote] We're a republic. We're also a democratic republic. Mayve you should take a civics class before spouting off again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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