'torture' And Catholic Doctrine?

[Era Might]

[quote]No. This would be an offense against an innocent party. But I would be willing to try one of those nifty waterboards or electrodes on the guy. [/quote]
Yes, his daughter would be innocent, but think about how reflexively you say no. You could just as easily argue that it would be justified to harm an innocent person in the name of the common good. You would be wrong, certainly, but it's an argument that is not completely out of the realm of possibility. When we think rationally, however, we realize that it is wrong, always, no matter the circumstances. The same is true of torture. Even the common good cannot legitimate what is evil. This is why our national security is not important enough for us to transgress the moral law and resort to torture. Nothing is that important.

[quote]Of course not. That would in no way save a life. The topic is whether or not I or any other legitimate authority can cause physical or mental torment for the purpose of obtaining information necessary for saving life. Vigilante justice or revenge is not in question.[/quote]
It could possibly save a life, if you believe he is unrepentant and will kill again. But, the essential point is that you have no authority to kill people, particularly as a private citizen acting against the state which has decided to readmit him to society.

Today we talk about a culture of death, but there can also be an idolatrous culture of life, when life is valued and preserved to the exclusion of the moral law. The reasoning you are giving for torture, that it could possibly save lives, is the same reasoning advanced for cloning or embryonic stem-cell research or euthanasia for organ harvesting. Yes, we would save a lot of lives if we killed old people and took their organs. But the ends do not justify the means.

Torture is never permissable, even in the name of human life.

[jswranch]

[quote name='Era Might' post='1104808' date='Oct 30 2006, 07:07 AM'] You could just as easily argue that it would be justified to harm an innocent person in the name of the common good.[/quote]

I do not see how you are putting the two of these together. They are vastly different. The dude is not innocent.

[quote]Today we talk about a culture of death, but there can also be an idolatrous culture of life, when life is valued and preserved to the exclusion of the moral law. The reasoning you are giving for torture, that it could possibly save lives, is the same reasoning advanced for cloning or embryonic stem-cell research or euthanasia for organ harvesting. Yes, we would save a lot of lives if we killed old people and took their organs. But the ends do not justify the means.[/quote]

You compare the two, but ESCR and eutahasia cause death and cause death to innocent life. Waterboarding this guy would neither cause death, nor would it be inflicted on an innocent.

[quote name='Era Might' post='1104808' date='Oct 30 2006, 07:07 AM']
Torture is never permissable, even in the name of human life.
[/quote]

If allowing this admitted child killer/rapist to sit happily in jail while I wait for my abducted, raped and trapped daughter to run out of air in her barrel as she cries for her daddy is the correct thing to do even though I have a non-mutilating and non-lethal means for obtaining her release, then I dont think I would have the fortitude to remain content I was doing good by doing nothing. I don't think I could condone a father like myself from working for the same, either.

Do you really think VS covers this situation and that JPII considered it?

Edited October 30, 2006 by jswranch

[cmotherofpirl]

That torture is wrong is not debatable, the question more to the point is how do you define the term?

[jswranch]

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' post='1105048' date='Oct 30 2006, 11:13 AM']
That torture is wrong is not debatable, the question more to the point is how do you define the term?
[/quote]

I believe he uses the definition of:

Torture is any torment "inflicted on body or mind" that "attempts to coerce the will itself."

which he gets from GS.

[phatcatholic]

check out Dave Armstrong's blog post on this topic:
[url="http://socrates58.blogspot.com/2006/10/controversial-torture-issue-as-related.html"]http://socrates58.blogspot.com/2006/10/con...as-related.html[/url]